RAIL - Back On Track Forum

As a northsider, I will once again advocate for any BERT/Metro extension and northern busway extension to deviate via The Prince Charles Hospital.

The Hospital is expanding dramatically and is incredibly busy. It's the second busiest emergency department in the state (after GCUH). Between staff, construction crews, outpatients and visitors, there's a huge need for better public transit. The Hospital site is massive and unfortunately half of it is taken up by surface parking. There is a new massive multi-level car park being built currently that might not even have been needed if there were adequate PT options available.

TPCH is a public transport desert and badly needs better public transport options.

Quote from: Habitant on August 29, 2024, 10:29:22 AMAs a northsider, I will once again advocate for any BERT/Metro extension and northern busway extension to deviate via The Prince Charles Hospital.

The Hospital is expanding dramatically and is incredibly busy. It's the second busiest emergency department in the state (after GCUH). Between staff, construction crews, outpatients and visitors, there's a huge need for better public transit. The Hospital site is massive and unfortunately half of it is taken up by surface parking. There is a new massive multi-level carp park being built currently that might not even have been needed if there were adequate PT options available.

TPCH is a public transport desert and badly needs better public transport options.

Yep. The busway needs to go via TPCH. They have quite a few visions planned for development but can't really utilise it due to the need for car parking due to the lack of active and public transport.

Quote from: Habitant on August 29, 2024, 10:29:22 AMAs a northsider, I will once again advocate for any BERT/Metro extension and northern busway extension to deviate via The Prince Charles Hospital.

The Hospital is expanding dramatically and is incredibly busy. It's the second busiest emergency department in the state (after GCUH). Between staff, construction crews, outpatients and visitors, there's a huge need for better public transit. The Hospital site is massive and unfortunately half of it is taken up by surface parking. There is a new massive multi-level carp park being built currently that might not even have been needed if there were adequate PT options available.

TPCH is a public transport desert and badly needs better public transport options.

On paper I agree with you, but a "proper" busway deviation to PCH would by itself probably cost half a billion dollars, which is why we can be very confident this BCC proposal includes little to no infrastructure and is just putting big buses on existing routes.

If the northside bus network wasn't so diabolical the need may be more obvious. A whole lot of northwest services should be going via PCH and the busway.

Quote from: AnonymouslyBad on August 29, 2024, 13:32:51 PM

Quote from: Habitant on August 29, 2024, 10:29:22 AMAs a northsider, I will once again advocate for any BERT/Metro extension and northern busway extension to deviate via The Prince Charles Hospital.

The Hospital is expanding dramatically and is incredibly busy. It's the second busiest emergency department in the state (after GCUH). Between staff, construction crews, outpatients and visitors, there's a huge need for better public transit. The Hospital site is massive and unfortunately half of it is taken up by surface parking. There is a new massive multi-level carp park being built currently that might not even have been needed if there were adequate PT options available.

TPCH is a public transport desert and badly needs better public transport options.

On paper I agree with you, but a "proper" busway deviation to PCH would by itself probably cost half a billion dollars, which is why we can be very confident this BCC proposal includes little to no infrastructure and is just putting big buses on existing routes.

If the northside bus network wasn't so diabolical the need may be more obvious. A whole lot of northwest services should be going via PCH and the busway.

A PCH deviation has been planned for a while. Even went to public consultation in 2008. Chermside needs a new interchange for metro vehicles anyway so there will be a big cost regardless.

Brisbane Metro BRT, being a bus, is capable of running on arterial roads.

It can just do that for the portion of the route until actual busway gets there.

It is little different to how BUZ services often start in the suburbs and then join the busway for part of their route.

Quote from: #Metro on August 29, 2024, 13:40:45 PMBrisbane Metro BRT, being a bus, is capable of running on arterial roads.

It can just do that for the portion of the route until actual busway gets there.

It is little different to how BUZ services often start in the suburbs and then join the busway for part of their route.

Not as straight forward as that. In theory yes but reality is something else depending on the route. And as I pointed out there are already limitations with the existing infrastructure. We already have 66 shadowing each other at Roma street so how many buses do you think you'll get queuing up at the northern busway entrances and exits? (In other news I've also been told there have been additional 66 services starting at Roma street to RBWH only to reduce dangerous levels of platform overcrowding at Roma street). You'll need longer light phases to get more traffic through but does that mean you'll now have buses causing congestion at the Albion portal slowing down the overall traffic speed. Sure culling routes at locations such as Chermside helps but you are still relying on a Chermside interchange upgrade. Which mind you doesn't help buses that join part way through as you can't always turn them around. You also have to take into account road closures/detours which can pop up. Not all roads have transit ways. Gympie and lutyche roads while big arterial roads at times have closed and had detours. Where do you turn metro buses around/detour them if northbound is blocked at Webster road? Flooding at Aspley? If you cull routes for feeders how does the network respond if a metro bus route then runs express Chermside-Carseldine via Murphy road? From what I have been told metro buses would be replaced with normal/artics running on detours when the busway is closed for running/cycling events. Would something apply here instead? But then wouldn't the redesigned network have deployed those buses elsewhere?? Arterial roads also opens the network to potential heavy delays. The majority of the Northside doesn't have any artics or bendy buses. You need to know where they can/can't run and then have a network review with suitable failovers should they need to be pulled/rerouted.

Quote from: HappyTrainGuy on August 30, 2024, 11:56:30 AM

Quote from: #Metro on August 29, 2024, 13:40:45 PMBrisbane Metro BRT, being a bus, is capable of running on arterial roads.

It can just do that for the portion of the route until actual busway gets there.

It is little different to how BUZ services often start in the suburbs and then join the busway for part of their route.

Not as straight forward as that. In theory yes but reality is something else depending on the route. And as I pointed out there are already limitations with the existing infrastructure. We already have 66 shadowing each other at Roma street so how many buses do you think you'll get queuing up at the northern busway entrances and exits? (In other news I've also been told there have been additional 66 services starting at Roma street to RBWH only to reduce dangerous levels of platform overcrowding at Roma street). You'll need longer light phases to get more traffic through but does that mean you'll now have buses causing congestion at the Albion portal slowing down the overall traffic speed. Sure culling routes at locations such as Chermside helps but you are still relying on a Chermside interchange upgrade. Which mind you doesn't help buses that join part way through as you can't always turn them around. You also have to take into account road closures/detours which can pop up. Not all roads have transit ways. Gympie and lutyche roads while big arterial roads at times have closed and had detours. Where do you turn metro buses around/detour them if northbound is blocked at Webster road? Flooding at Aspley? If you cull routes for feeders how does the network respond if a metro bus route then runs express Chermside-Carseldine via Murphy road? From what I have been told metro buses would be replaced with normal/artics running on detours when the busway is closed for running/cycling events. Would something apply here instead? But then wouldn't the redesigned network have deployed those buses elsewhere?? Arterial roads also opens the network to potential heavy delays. The majority of the Northside doesn't have any artics or bendy buses. You need to know where they can/can't run and then have a network review with suitable failovers should they need to be pulled/rerouted.

Funnily enough, you do see some artics on the Northside for driver training. I've seen them drive past on Edinburgh Castle Road in the past

Hi HTG,

Thanks for your very detailed comment.

Do you have any objection to a Brisbane Metro BRT bus:

- turning off Gympie Road
- turning left into Rode Road
- turning right into Webster Road
- Stopping at a stop slightly north to the current Stop 37 on Webster Road (assume all necessary road treatments/crossings/works are carried out to enable this and are not a barrier) for hospital access
- continuing along Webster Road
- turn right into Hamilton Road
- Terminate at Chermside interchange

If you have an objection, could you please detail a) what the issue might be and b) what mitigation might be acceptable (or if nothing can be done, indicate that)

We all want PCH to have good PT access, and if we can get that sooner rather than wait on infrastructure, then we should support that.

And if there is a blocker in the way, ask how might we resolve it.

Quote from: RowBro on August 30, 2024, 12:03:44 PM

Quote from: HappyTrainGuy on August 30, 2024, 11:56:30 AM

Quote from: #Metro on August 29, 2024, 13:40:45 PMBrisbane Metro BRT, being a bus, is capable of running on arterial roads.

It can just do that for the portion of the route until actual busway gets there.

It is little different to how BUZ services often start in the suburbs and then join the busway for part of their route.

Not as straight forward as that. In theory yes but reality is something else depending on the route. And as I pointed out there are already limitations with the existing infrastructure. We already have 66 shadowing each other at Roma street so how many buses do you think you'll get queuing up at the northern busway entrances and exits? (In other news I've also been told there have been additional 66 services starting at Roma street to RBWH only to reduce dangerous levels of platform overcrowding at Roma street). You'll need longer light phases to get more traffic through but does that mean you'll now have buses causing congestion at the Albion portal slowing down the overall traffic speed. Sure culling routes at locations such as Chermside helps but you are still relying on a Chermside interchange upgrade. Which mind you doesn't help buses that join part way through as you can't always turn them around. You also have to take into account road closures/detours which can pop up. Not all roads have transit ways. Gympie and lutyche roads while big arterial roads at times have closed and had detours. Where do you turn metro buses around/detour them if northbound is blocked at Webster road? Flooding at Aspley? If you cull routes for feeders how does the network respond if a metro bus route then runs express Chermside-Carseldine via Murphy road? From what I have been told metro buses would be replaced with normal/artics running on detours when the busway is closed for running/cycling events. Would something apply here instead? But then wouldn't the redesigned network have deployed those buses elsewhere?? Arterial roads also opens the network to potential heavy delays. The majority of the Northside doesn't have any artics or bendy buses. You need to know where they can/can't run and then have a network review with suitable failovers should they need to be pulled/rerouted.

Funnily enough, you do see some artics on the Northside for driver training. I've seen them drive past on Edinburgh Castle Road in the past

IIRC one of the loops involves the busway, lutyche road, junction road to nudgee road, east-west arterial to Sandgate road and back to Gympie road via rode road/edinburgh castle road.

Quote from: #Metro on August 30, 2024, 12:09:31 PMHi HTG,

Thanks for your very detailed comment.

Do you have any objection to a Brisbane Metro BRT bus:

- turning off Gympie Road
- turning left into Rode Road
- turning right into Webster Road
- Stopping at a stop slightly north to the current Stop 37 on Webster Road (assume all necessary road treatments/crossings/works are carried out to enable this and are not a barrier) for hospital access
- continuing along Webster Road
- turn right into Hamilton Road
- Terminate at Chermside interchange

If you have an objection, could you please detail a) what the issue might be and b) what mitigation might be acceptable (or if nothing can be done, indicate that)

We all want PCH to have good PT access, and if we can get that sooner rather than wait on infrastructure, then we should support that.

And if there is a blocker in the way, ask how might we resolve it.

No because you have never dealt with the rode road traffic jam before Also check out the current325s, 335s and 340s. There's only been a handful of services that haven't had a delay of less than 10 minutes due to contesting of crossing the Gympie Road/hamilton road intersection since 11am. And you want to send a service that's every 10 minutes that way.

Anyway. Issues with Webster road include narrow footpaths. The western footpath isn't daa compliant and pedestrians regularly have to step out onto the road to get around wheelchair users accessing the 335/325. With the lack of space you have to go all the way down and use stop 39. But by that point you have lost the point of close access. Might aswell terminate all Northside routes at Normanby and walk to the city.

For best access you have to do the original proposal and tunnel under it. There is significant redevelopment and using a side street or transit way on Gympie road is not a valid option. Especially when this was what QLDHealth saw for the facility plan in 2030 with substantial growth. You can see the busway to the left of the image. One of the largest facilities in Queensland and yet no proper public transport infrastructure. In fact the most recent infrastructure being built is another car park due to poor public transport access.



If you want it sooner rather than later you still have metro buses accessing the interchange issues.

Quote from: HTGNo because you have never dealt with the rode road traffic jam before Also check out the current325s, 335s and 340s. There's only been a handful of services that haven't had a delay of less than 10 minutes due to contesting of crossing the Gympie Road/hamilton road intersection since 11am. And you want to send a service that's every 10 minutes that way.

I want to clarify my understanding of your position.

So because Brisbane Metro BRT might be delayed along Rode Rd, PCH should be deprived of access to Brisbane Metro BRT until such time a tunnel can be built to it (involving an undefined/indefinite wait period).

Is that right?

I note Citygliders are not exclusive busway running, they come every 3-5 min and are often caught in valley congestion.

And congestion isn't there all the time - isn't it mainly a peak hour thing?

Would a more acceptable solution for you be extending a BUZ to PCH and leaving Brisbane Metro on Gympie Road for now?

Really trying for a gotcha! aren't you. Metro buses yes. It's a waste. Design a better network rather than p%ssing around trying to get a metro bus to stop on a bloody narrow Webster road. Oh look a new fancy metro bus but it takes 20-30 minutes to go from rode road-Chermside. You just loose too much time. Rode road/gympie road is a sh%t show of an intersection. It's single lane until you get a few meters from the intersection. Even at midday you can be waiting in traffic as far back as the bowls club heading east and you want to put a metro bus every 10 minutes into it? And that's just between peak hour. And not including the absolute sh%t show of a crossing and stop location on Webster road.

As I said. Since 11am. Only a few buses have been less than 10 minutes late. 11am isn't peak hour. Between 1-2pm 7 services stopped there westbound. 2 were on time or 1 minute late which was the 325 and 353. The rest were 10+ minutes late. The 340 buz outbound was 14/16/10/20 minutes late respectively. 335 inbound was 12 mins late. Flip it for east bound and not a single bus was under 7 minutes late. The best was the 325 at 7 minutes late and the worst being the 340 once again at a nice cool 17 minutes late. Both directions. Towards the city. From the city. To the Chermside interchange. From the Chermside interchange.  Jump forward and the 353 that departed Chermside was already 24 minutes late by the time it got to the top of the smaller hill on Hamilton road. Between 1.15pm-4.45 10 outbound 340 were more than 10 minutes late. 5 of them was 15 minutes late and 2 were 20+ minutes late. And that's from a flagship bcc buz route.  If a flagship buz route that runs every 15 minutes during the day can have services 20 minutes late throughout the day how does that fare for metro buses?

Am I against a metro bus using Webster road? Yes.
Am I against shitty road crossings on Webster road?
Yes.

Just fix the network. Stop farting around with fantasy ideas. Oh but the hospital. Oh Metro buses. Give me a break. Not too long ago you were on your high horse defending a busway from deviating towards TPCH.

Not at all HTG.

Do members here agree or disagree with HTG on this? Is a BUZ to PCH sufficient for now / near term?

Why not just have a PCH - Chermside free loop bus service and call it the 355 or something? This loop would be start at Hamilton Rd @ Chermside interchange, down Webster Rd, and turn into the Hospital doing the loop at Hospital Service Rd / Sixth Ave before leaving Webster Rd and back to Chermside interchange. It even connects with the 335, 340, 353, but is no turn-up-and-go service.

The "just extend the Metro to..." argument is getting tiresome.

The bus routes that I can find that go PCH are:
Hamilton Rd - 335, BUZ 340, 353
Webster Rd - 335
Main St / Rode Rd - 354 (this one goes to the main entrance)

325 also goes via Hamilton Road/Webster road to service TPCH. The problem with these two routes (325/335) despite being closer than the Hamilton road stops are the poor and narrow footpaths along Webster road. Delays are the worst as there is no signage to notify people of delays. Just a paper timetable. One starts at Sandgate and the other at Boondall. If you are relying on connections having routes 7-25 minutes late because of the network design only encourages more people to drive or use other services such as taxis or ride share services that only further adds to the congestion in the area.

Quote from: #Metro on August 30, 2024, 19:40:08 PMNot at all HTG.

Do members here agree or disagree with HTG on this? Is a BUZ to PCH sufficient for now / near term?

I think it's just better to have the metro buses run along Gympie Road Road with new infrastructure around Westfield Chermside, as well as a new tunnel portal section inbound to connect with the existing tunnel at Kedron Brook

I think the 325 is actually a sleeper candidate for being daytime frequent, like the 375... which could also plausibly be extended to TPCH or Chermside proper.

And like - fixing the footpaths as enabling works here is so cheap and easy in comparison to building a busway!

In theory I could take the outbound 335 or 340 to TPCH, but neither of them get me there on time for for work.

The 340 comes closest with a scheduled arrival time of 7:22am, but the stop's location on Hamilton road is a nearly 10minute walk (up a slight hill) to the actual hospital building.
So that's a no go for 7am shifts, but doesn't cut it for 7:30.

The 335 doesn't even leave Queens Street until 8:20.

Honestly these services are so pitiful they are non-starters for 95% of staff.


So yes, a structural transport solution is absolutely needed.

Quote from: aldonius on August 31, 2024, 14:30:00 PMI think the 325 is actually a sleeper candidate for being daytime frequent, like the 375... which could also plausibly be extended to TPCH or Chermside proper.

And like - fixing the footpaths as enabling works here is so cheap and easy in comparison to building a busway!

325 was one of the HF routes proposed in the 2013 review and I wholeheartedly support it since it fills in a couple of big gaps in the radial network.