RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Let's not promote BRT where we have the madness that is the busway today!!BRT is just a stepping stone to Light Rail in vehicle not network design

It is possible to choose both BRT and LRT, you just allocate them to do the transport task at different points in time in a succession.

BRT is fairly quick and cheap to set up. That will buy you time while you secure the funds for LRT to replace it.

Quote from: #Metro on April 20, 2023, 16:37:34 PMIt is possible to choose both BRT and LRT, you just allocate them to do the transport task at different points in time in a succession.

BRT is fairly quick and cheap to set up. That will buy you time while you secure the funds for LRT to replace it.

exactly it is a vehicle choice not a network or operation choice.

Jonno, I also think a two mode, two phase strategy has advantages that are nothing to do with technical or operational aspects.

A BRT-first project might be more politically acceptable to the community than an LRT-first project. Once the BRT volumes start going up, transition is incremental - you would just add the poles, wires and track to the BRT ROW to get your LRT.

     

Quote from: #Metro on April 20, 2023, 16:14:05 PMIn the end, yes.

1 train + 3x mass transit = 4 total.

3/4 = 0.75, roundup to 0.8

Why round up. Rounding up makes it 1 train + 4x mass transit = 5 total. 4/5 = 0.8. Why state your assumption of 1 train to every 2 to 3 local rapid transport and then use 1 in 4 in your calculations?

Quote from: #Metro on April 20, 2023, 17:19:11 PMJonno, I also think a two mode, two phase strategy has advantages that are nothing to do with technical or operational aspects.

A BRT-first project might be more politically acceptable to the community than an LRT-first project. Once the BRT volumes start going up, transition is incremental - you would just add the poles, wires and track to the BRT ROW to get your LRT.

     

Clearly something went wrong with the Busways in Brisbane.

Quote from: RowBro on April 20, 2023, 18:03:14 PM

Quote from: #Metro on April 20, 2023, 17:19:11 PMJonno, I also think a two mode, two phase strategy has advantages that are nothing to do with technical or operational aspects.

A BRT-first project might be more politically acceptable to the community than an LRT-first project. Once the BRT volumes start going up, transition is incremental - you would just add the poles, wires and track to the BRT ROW to get your LRT.

     

Clearly something went wrong with the Busways in Brisbane.

Correct. While the first ever built section from Mater Hill to Wooloongabba was built to standards for an upgrade to light rail in mind (turn radii, grades), the rest of the busway was not. You would need substantial work, particularly on the inner city sections, to make the grades appropriate for a light rail vehicle. Hence why the choice of the Metro BRT vehicle is a sensible solution given the prohibitively expensive alternative

QuoteCorrect. While the first ever built section from Mater Hill to Wooloongabba was built to standards for an upgrade to light rail in mind (turn radii, grades), the rest of the busway was not. You would need substantial work, particularly on the inner city sections, to make the grades appropriate for a light rail vehicle. Hence why the choice of the Metro BRT vehicle is a sensible solution given the prohibitively expensive alternative

LRT would require a new bridge or tunnel because when the trams were ripped up by Clem Jones, BCC built the new Victoria bridge to not take the weight of trams (as they didn't exist).

LRT would have required new depots and purchase of vehicles, all of which BRT could avoid.

In terms of the Sunshine Coast, I imagine the ROW to be Priority B. So it won't have the nearly the same issues in terms of upgrading as Priority A.

Quote from: #Metro on April 20, 2023, 21:14:31 PM

QuoteCorrect. While the first ever built section from Mater Hill to Wooloongabba was built to standards for an upgrade to light rail in mind (turn radii, grades), the rest of the busway was not. You would need substantial work, particularly on the inner city sections, to make the grades appropriate for a light rail vehicle. Hence why the choice of the Metro BRT vehicle is a sensible solution given the prohibitively expensive alternative

LRT would require a new bridge or tunnel because when the trams were ripped up by Clem Jones, BCC built the new Victoria bridge to not take the weight of trams (as they didn't exist).

LRT would have required new depots and purchase of vehicles, all of which BRT could avoid.

In terms of the Sunshine Coast, I imagine the ROW to be Priority B. So it won't have the nearly the same issues in terms of upgrading as Priority A.

Off topic but I always find the "can't take light rail on Vic bridge" to be questionable when it is was ok to have it full of stationary buses and cars (4 lanes) at one stage?

I would think with modern lighter materials that a tram or the actually required Metro would be fine!!!

Quote from: Jonno on April 21, 2023, 07:52:49 AM

Quote from: #Metro on April 20, 2023, 21:14:31 PM

QuoteCorrect. While the first ever built section from Mater Hill to Wooloongabba was built to standards for an upgrade to light rail in mind (turn radii, grades), the rest of the busway was not. You would need substantial work, particularly on the inner city sections, to make the grades appropriate for a light rail vehicle. Hence why the choice of the Metro BRT vehicle is a sensible solution given the prohibitively expensive alternative

LRT would require a new bridge or tunnel because when the trams were ripped up by Clem Jones, BCC built the new Victoria bridge to not take the weight of trams (as they didn't exist).

LRT would have required new depots and purchase of vehicles, all of which BRT could avoid.

In terms of the Sunshine Coast, I imagine the ROW to be Priority B. So it won't have the nearly the same issues in terms of upgrading as Priority A.

Off topic but I always find the "can't take light rail on Vic bridge" to be questionable when it is was ok to have it full of stationary buses and cars (4 lanes) at one stage?

I would think with modern lighter materials that a tram or the actually required Metro would be fine!!!

Doesn't address the issue of steep grades and tight curves between Mater Hill and Cultural Centre, between Cultural Centre and KGS, between KGS and Roma Street, between Roma Street and Normanby, between Herston and RBWH, etc. etc. etc....

Moved discussion on the gradients and curves to https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=12687.msg270191;topicseen#footer

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1683488342246060032

I'm not sure why there is a suggestion that BRT will be incrementally upgraded to light rail because it hasn't happened.
We just got bigger buses.

The Gold coast is demonstrated. You just build it right the first time and you get a stronger patronage response.

When you upgrade a high frequency bus route to trams, you're not just getting like double the patronage. You get getting literally five times the patronage.

Yes, there are some members of the community that find light rail unacceptable but that tends to be a lot of hot air and the patronage figures speak for themselves

Quote from: Gazza on July 25, 2023, 02:24:04 AMI'm not sure why there is a suggestion that BRT will be incrementally upgraded to light rail because it hasn't happened.
We just got bigger buses.

The Gold coast is demonstrated. You just build it right the first time and you get a stronger patronage response.

When you upgrade a high frequency bus route to trams, you're not just getting like double the patronage. You get getting literally five times the patronage.

Yes, there are some members of the community that find light rail unacceptable but that tends to be a lot of hot air and the patronage figures speak for themselves

+       

There's a lot of positioning of BRT vs LRT as substitutes, but they don't have to be.

LRT takes time to build. GC LRT opened on 20 July 2014, funding was committed for the first stage in 2009, first contract 2011. It's now 2023, and the project has not yet reached Coolangatta.

BRT just needs the depot and buses, maybe a marked lane. It's good for filling that initial lead time gap.

I also think the rail effect is more to do with the feeder-transfer model than the mode. LRT forces the surrounding bus network into a terminate-and-transfer model, BRT doesn't but can be designed to.

QuoteLRT takes time to build. GC LRT opened on 20 July 2014, funding was committed for the first stage in 2009, first contract 2011. It's now 2023, and the project has not yet reached Coolangatta.

So the SE busway was commenced in the late 90s, opened in 2000 in time for the Olympic soccer tournament
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_East_Busway

Planning for the Springwood extension occurred 17 years ago.
https://statements.qld.gov.au/statements/43213

QuotePublished Friday, 14 July, 2006 at 02:22 PM

Minister for Transport & Main Roads
The Honourable Paul Lucas

·South East Busway - $32 million project to extend the busway to Springwood, planning is under way

The busway to Springwood is still under construction, and as for Hyperdome, its still at the 3D animation stage, so who knows what year it will open?

I actually believe we will see the 40km LR system to Coolangatta complete before 32km busway to Hyperdome.

If they start tomorrow and get the Hyperdome open in  5 years time, it was still a 30 year project.

It seems the Coolangatta extension will be open by the olympics, so 2032 subtract 2009 (first funding) = 23 years.

So in conclusion, LR has been faster to roll out in fact!

*****************

If we on the topic of the speed of rollout of BRT because its cheap and quick and politically expedient, how come theres not bus lanes at least all the way to Bracken Ridge or Capalaba?

On the northern route, its still only as far as Chermside, with a missing gap at Windsor.
on the eastern route, there is 1km built at Langlands park and the upgraded intersection at Creek Road.

If there is criticism that GCLR has taken too long to roll out, wouldn't that also apply to those two planned routes?

And as an added bonus, the LR system hasn't needed repeated reconfiguration throughout its lifespan.

I'd be starting with around 2004 for GCLR - that was when the first serious study was done by Parsons Brinckerhoff.  There was some earlier work done by GCCC but nothing as detailed I think (and excluding the brain farts around using a Von Roll type monorail).

Then around 2006 the State started doing consultation, detailed design work etc.  Light rail was locked in as the preferred mode around 2008, then funding commitment made by the Rudd Government, then contractual arrangements finalised in 2011 preceding 3 and a bit years' worth of construction until opening of Stage 1 on 20 July 2014. 

Stage 2 extension rolled out and opened on 17 December 2017, with the 2018 Commonwealth Games as an imperative.

The progress south of Broadbeach has been slower than desired of course but there were factors behind that - COVID, skyrocketing construction costs, Federal Government dragging the chain on funding while it was Coalition run etc.

Assuming a favourable political environment (ie Labor win federally in 2025 and either Annastacia wins in 2024 or if the LNP win they sideline the local members), I expect the gap between Stage 3 and Stage 4 will be less than between Stages 2 and 3.  Stage 4 is a substantially bigger scope of work than Stages 2 or 3, so it will take longer than either.  Probably early to mid 2025 for Stage 3 and 2023-2031 for Stage 4.

Even still, we're talking maybe 26-27 years from inception of some kind of coastal light rail project resembling what we ended up with to the whole 40+km being delivered. 

The South-East Busway only goes to just past Eight Mile Plains even now.  To get it to Mandew Street from where it currently ends is about another 10km and there is no timeframe for delivery past Springwood.  There is no timeframe whatsoever on meaningful extension of the Eastern Busway past Langlands Park, the missing bit of the Northern Busway from Cedric Street to Truro Street or any extension north of Stafford Road.  Even then bus services will be more or less at the whim of BCC and whatever funding they make available.  Langlands Park to Buranda also cost something like $1bn in at-the-time terms from memory.

Good points SurfRail.

BRT can be operated in bus lanes, it doesn't have to be like the SEB.

Think like the Cityglider or BUZ network in a bus or T2 lane. This can be done as a bridging solution while running the funding battle.

When you get the LRT in the core you can then relocate the BRT to the feeder routes.

Basically, you don't have to use one approach. A combined approach in space or time is also possible.

Quote from: #Metro on July 25, 2023, 12:04:28 PMGood points SurfRail.

BRT can be operated in bus lanes, it doesn't have to be like the SEB.

Think like the Cityglider or BUZ network in a bus or T2 lane. This can be done as a bridging solution while running the funding battle.

When you get the LRT in the core you can then relocate the BRT to the feeder routes.

Basically, you don't have to use one approach. A combined approach in space or time is also possible.

In an ideal world this would be great, however it is clear that the current Queensland Government would prefer to build roads and only acts on Public Transport when it is a necessity. As such, I don't see the current Government replacing a BRT with LRT because it isn't 'necessary'. There's something there already which they can deflect to.

It is very possible that future Governments would operate differently but I wouldn't bet my life on it. Therefore, building it as LRT to begin with is probably for the best.

A BRT can run on these roads the government is building. A tram cannot, not at least without significant works.

Again, its about bridging that initial time gap inside a combined strategy. You can still get the tram when the bus is full.

The section that the GC LRT doesn't cover yet is covered by the 777 high frequency connecting bus. If you put that 777 bus into a bus lane, got a bigger bus similar to Brisbane BRT metro and put some branding on it, you'd have your BRT.

Transport is the product, modes are means to deliver it.

Quote from: #Metro on July 25, 2023, 12:48:48 PMAgain, its about bridging that initial time gap inside a combined strategy. You can still get the tram when the bus is full.

The section that the GC LRT doesn't cover yet is covered by the 777 high frequency connecting bus. If you put that 777 bus into a bus lane, got a bigger bus similar to Brisbane BRT metro and put some branding on it, you'd have your BRT.

I understand what you're saying. The problem is under the current government you are not likely to get a tram when the bus is full. If the 777 was in a bus lane or a dedicated right of way, I doubt the GLink would be extended any further. Adding bus lanes can be prohibitively expensive (as is the case with the Gympie Road Transitway) because instead of taking a lane from general traffic it has to be a new lane (under our current government). If you're spending all that money to widen the road, you may as well put the tracks in.

I'm not saying this is the way it should be, just that it is the way that it is currently. It's clear that if we want it done the best way long term, we have to advocate for it to be done that way from the start. Look at the single-track Cleveland Line as the prima facie. If it were built double track to begin with, we wouldn't be in the mess we are in currently. Even though the 'busses are full' (the tracks in this case), the Government isn't doing anything.

Besides, the Sunshine Coast is definitely dense enough to warrant a light rail from the onset. To build a BRT would be silly when it's blatantly obvious an LRT would be needed within a decade.

QuoteI understand what you're saying. The problem is under the current government you are not likely to get a tram when the bus is full.

If the government cannot deliver a bus upgrade, why would it then follow that they could deliver a tram upgrade, which is harder and more work, not less?

Unless all ~ 22 km of SC LRT were to open in one big bang and immediately, there are still going to be service gaps during the planning and finance stage (Stage 0) and on any yet-to-be completed stages of LRT.

Quote from: #Metro on July 25, 2023, 13:15:30 PM

QuoteI understand what you're saying. The problem is under the current government you are not likely to get a tram when the bus is full.

If the government cannot deliver a bus upgrade, why would it then follow that they could deliver a tram upgrade, which is harder and more work, not less?

Unless all ~ 22 km of SC LRT were to open in one big bang and immediately, there are still going to be service gaps during the planning and finance stage (Stage 0) and on any yet-to-be completed stages of LRT.

You're misunderstanding my point. They can deliver both, the issue is they won't unless strictly necessary. There's already a bus along most of the proposed route, it just gets stuck in traffic. It would require additional bus lanes if it were a BRT which isn't as cheap or quick as you expect. Better to just deal with the traffic and save the money for LRT even if it takes a couple years longer.

QuoteBetter to just deal with the traffic and save the money for LRT even if it takes a couple years longer.

When you write 'deal with the traffic' what measures are you suggesting here?

Are you suggesting just leaving the bus stuck in congestion?

Parts of that main road route Nicklin Way have three lanes either way. One lane each way is taken up by car parking along this main road.

Would it really be that prohibitively expensive to remove the car parks and make that the bus lane?

QuoteBRT can be operated in bus lanes, it doesn't have to be like the SEB.

Think like the Cityglider or BUZ network in a bus or T2 lane. This can be done as a bridging solution while running the funding battle.

OK, i keep hearing reference to how bus lanes are a quick and easy solution, where are they then?

Because Caloundra to Maroochydoore should already have these "bridging solution" bus lanes but we don't/ we got a couple of upgraded bus stations and some jump lanes.

https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/coastconnect-caloundra-to-maroochydore-quality-bus-corridor

QuoteWould it really be that prohibitively expensive to remove the car parks and make that the bus lane?

I see this often put up that putting in a bus lane is just a simple case of removing the car parks, and "a bit of paint"

But the reality is that a parking lane is often narrower than a bus lane, and the pavement is not designed to have  buses or BRT vehicles running in the same spot wearing ruts.
That often necessitates redoing the gutters and stormwater to make the lane wider (and then often footpaths) and ripping up and relaying pavement suitable for heavier vehicles.

Agree about the parking lane being narrower but the other traffic lanes are generally too wide and designed for higher speeds than pasted.  There is room in most major roads.

I would have thought that buses running on dedicated existing lanes would not rut too much or we would see that with 1000's of cars and buses today but I am certainly no expert! One approach is to just fix it when it occurs rather than rip up existing lanes and re-lay just in case.

The lack of bus lane and redesigned BRT-based trunk routes with rationalized/reduced stations is purely political.  My logic is get the legibility and patronage going up while the end-state is built.

It should exist and should be the first step in eventually implementing LRT or even true-Metros...which does take time.

It doesn't exist because our Government don't think it is needed. They believe their own PR that our public transport is all world-class.

Please all keep in mind there have been near continuous bus lanes on the GC Hwy between Pacific Fair and Nobby Beach for decades.  Clearly that hasn't stopped Stage 3.

On the other hand - bus priority on any major Brisbane road in or close to town apart from the busway?  Stuff all.

QuoteAgree about the parking lane being narrower but the other traffic lanes are generally too wide and designed for higher speeds than pasted.  There is room in most major roads.

Agree with what Jonno said!! 
!!!



Update: Image GC Highway. They could probably fit in a bike lane as well!

Agree with what Metro said!

Sunshine Coast News --> MP voices opposition to light rail as five public transport options contemplated

QuoteA member of federal parliament has called on the community to rally against a light rail proposal, as the state government considers options to improve public transport on the Sunshine Coast.

Light rail is among five options for enhanced travel from the Maroochydore City Centre to Sunshine Coast University Hospital at Birtinya, with a possible extension to Caloundra.

It would complement the Direct Sunshine Coast Rail Line and other proposed transport upgrades like the Kawana Motorway and Mooloolah River Interchange Upgrade.

But the LNP MP for Fisher, Andrew Wallace, said there was no place for light rail in the region.

"The light rail project will remove a lane either side of Nicklin Way and Alexandra Parade while allowing for a wall of high-density residential development along this same coastal strip," he said.

"Light rail will worsen congestion and impact on the character and liveability of our community. ...

This project is linked to more dense housing along the proposed light rail route ... to accommodate the extra population the state government wants councils to take under the SEQ Regional Plan.

The state government wants councils to take people without any guarantee of the funding of new infrastructure needed as a consequence of the densification.

To be honest we need more housing and densification regardless.

The government talks jobs, jobs, jobs, for regions. So there needs to be an equivalent number of dwellings for the number of workers coming to the area.

Infrastructure is important that I think it's more important to get people out of sleeping out of cars in the immediate term and sort out infrastructure later

Federal Coalition MPs and opposing public transport projects, name a more iconic duo.

Federal MPs opposing higher density and greater variety of housing in walkable/transit oriented neighbourhoods?

State MPs opposing higher density and greater variety of housing in walkable/transit oriented neighbourhoods?

Mayors and Local Councillors opposing higher density and greater variety of housing in walkable/transit oriented neighbourhoods?

I noticed in the project update on the vehicles it compares a BRT vehicle (100 people) with a single LRT vehicle (200 people) with no mention that the LRT can either be much long like the Gold Coast or combined as a set to have far higher capacity! 

BRT cannot not do this and this is part of its limitations!

It also said that BRT can have batteries and thus no over head power lines but fails to mention that LRT can Have batteries and below ground power.

Feels like LRT being unfairly described.

It does state that LR has greater capacity then BRT, but doesn't elaborate on the significant difference.

Quote from: Jonno on November 02, 2023, 06:32:06 AMI noticed in the project update on the vehicles it compares a BRT vehicle (100 people) with a single LRT vehicle (200 people) with no mention that the LRT can either be much long like the Gold Coast or combined as a set to have far higher capacity! 

BRT cannot not do this and this is part of its limitations!

It also said that BRT can have batteries and thus no over head power lines but fails to mention that LRT can Have batteries and below ground power.

Feels like LRT being unfairly described.

In reality, the Brisbane Metro vehicles should be capable of doing 200+, and G:Link's trams can (and I'm reasonably sure have) accommodated up to 400 based on a less comfortable squash capacity of about 5-6/m2.  The oft-quoted capacity of 309 for one of the trams is based on 80 seats and 229 standees (at 4/m2) but that is not a hard limit, especially during event times.

I don't see any reason to hamstring the Sunshine Coast's system by not moving to light rail, and to avoid delays to journey time and added cost any gimmicks that involve anything other than plan OHLE should be avoided.

Concur SR

Quote from: SurfRail on November 02, 2023, 10:22:17 AMIn reality, the Brisbane Metro vehicles should be capable of doing 200+, and G:Link's trams can (and I'm reasonably sure have) accommodated up to 400 based on a less comfortable squash capacity of about 5-6/m2.  The oft-quoted capacity of 309 for one of the trams is based on 80 seats and 229 standees (at 4/m2) but that is not a hard limit, especially during event times.

I don't see any reason to hamstring the Sunshine Coast's system by not moving to light rail, and to avoid delays to journey time and added cost any gimmicks that involve anything other than plan OHLE should be avoided.