RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Couriermail --> Flying air taxis could become major job-creating industry for southeast Queensland $

QuoteSelf-flying taxis could whisk people from Brisbane to the Sunshine Coast in 22 minutes, and become a major job-creating industry worth millions to South East Queensland's economy in the lead-up to the 2032 Olympic Games, according to a new report.

The report into the advantages of creating an autonomous air taxi industry in Brisbane has been published by Boeing-backed Wisk Aero and the South East Queensland Council of Mayors, and comes seven months after the pair inked a major business deal.

A delegation of the 11-member council, including Brisbane Lord Mayor Adrian Schrinner, is on an 11-day fact-finding mission in the US and Canada ahead of the 2032 Games. ...

The con continues ...

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1621881709947162624

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1621884349393080321

https://twitter.com/JonathanPBryant/status/1621779489935216641

^

I think we really do have a public transport policy and leadership failure on our hands in Queensland, particularly SEQ.  The State Government needs to take over all public transport administration through a vehicle such as a public transport authority immediately. BCC needs to be an operator, not running amok with nonsense.

Sad really.

https://twitter.com/9NewsQueensland/status/1621992335809601537

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1621993279545044992

No doubt, Brisbane Airport Corporation (BAC) and CASA will have a lot to say about this. Particularly in SEQ where strong storms are common.

Not a substitute for PT.

Media seems to have just echoed whatever media release info they have been given, uncritically.

Where is the report? Let's read it.

Aircraft Background Info

https://wisk.aero/aircraft/

What's the estimated ticket price?

LM Scrinner has pilot and RAF Experience https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Schrinner

THE DETAILS 

Update: There is a copy of the report on the SEQ Council of Mayors website.

Company background info https://wisk.aero/news/

Vehicle Info https://wisk.aero/aircraft/

Report by Wisk Aero, the company

Bringing Advanced Air Mobility (AAM) to Brisbane, South East Queensland (SEQ), Australia Identifying and Implementing the Opportunities  AAM Presents for SEQ February 2023

URL: SEQ Wisk Aero Report

Some more thoughts on this.

We can use the same tools to analyse bus and car to look at this one.

Analysis Method - Line Capacity

The vehicles would follow fixed routes in the air between destination points, as they cannot just land and recharge anywhere. This is also going to be the case if the vehicle is going to be shared. The route could contain one or more stops.

I imagine multiple-stops would be minimised as pax would find it annoying to constantly land and takeoff.

A key thing is the frequency. If we have one pad and one vehicle, what is the minimum safe amount of time before the next vehicle can depart?

In the air, there would also need to be a safe separation distance between vehicles. This applies whether it is autonomous or not.

Line capacity:

A good starting point would be say 5 minutes between aircraft.

At a capacity of 4 pax, that means:

60 minutes x (1 vehicle/5 minutes) = 12 vehicles/hour/pad x 4 pax

= 48 pphd.

At a 2 minute frequency between vehicles (assuming it takes 2 minutes to walk and board properly, doors to close, rotors up, separation distance etc):

60 minutes x (1 vehicle/2 minutes) = 30 vehicles/hour/pad x 4 pax

= 120 pax per hour

Sensitivity

What frequency is required to match the capacity of a standard 65-seat BCC bus?

65 pax/4 per vehicle = 16.25 vehicles in an hour

60 min / 16.25 = 3.69 minutes

Air Taxi would have to depart every 3.6 minutes from the pad to match the capacity of a standard BCC bus.

Conclusion

This is a devastating analysis. Mathematically, it has even lower line capacity than a car in a motorway lane. A car can do 1800 vehicles per hour or 2160 pphd per lane.

This thing can only do at best 120 pax per hour per pad.

This quick, back-of-the envelope only provides further evidence that it can only be a niche thing.

120 pphd!! 

https://twitter.com/CrJaredCassidy/status/1621998714884853760

Yes, niche for the rich at best.

The SEQ Council of Mayors have 'jumped the shark'. 
As much as they might use the Couriermail et al for media beat ups the optics are terrible.

Pity the State Government seems unable to do what is necessary.

We need reliable fast electric trains to Caloundra and to Toowoomba by 2030.

This is the best option for many.

The report relies heavily on company marketing material.

- There were economic arguments but no figures for actual potential patronage between origin-destination pairs. That is crucial missing information.

- The company must have it, as they would do revenue forecasts for any market they want to enter.

- The benefits IMHO are overstated, transporting hospital patients and agricultural produce seemed unlikely.

- Niche tourism applications, for example displacing some ferry services to Tangalooma or passenger access to SMBI for example are probably possible.

- Could also be possible to do air tours of certain areas, for example Sea World Helicopters (also serves as an example as to why separation in time and space for departing air vehicles is very important). Or access to hinterland resorts or wineries.

Very telling the company chose to focus on speed and not frequency, and the SEQ Council of Mayors went along with it.

They all probably drive, from the leaders and members, all down to the media people and policy analysts. So they didn't pick up on the importance of frequency.

There would also be likely more than one operator over time, just like land taxis and airports. Are they going to share the pads between competing operators? How will that work? Or will it be exclusive and Wisk proprietary only?

You could start as private air traffic control, but you might need a public one in time. So there would be regulatory costs that would need be be recovered publicly from the passengers.

Priority infrastructure list by 2030/31

• Sunshine Coast Line to Caloundra
• Toowoomba Line
• Gold Coast Line extended to OOL
• The busway extended from UQ to Indooroopilly with a new train station TOD at Indooroopilly to replace the existing Bunnings.
• The busway extended from Langlands Park to Coorparoo Sq
• Complete the missing section of the busway from Federation Street to the Lutwyche tunnel portal

Priority Bus improvements

• Electric Gold Glider from Skygate - Woolloongabba via Hamilton Northshore
• Electric shuttle bus from Skygate to the cruise terminal being 30 mins or better. (contracted to BAC) **Donates a paid single zone service collected by smart ticketing validators

^ thanks Metro.  I think it will all fold in a heap, just a marketing PR stunt. 

Maybe the visit to Metro Vancouver might ground some reality.

Tourist PT improvements

Gondola services up and down Mt Cootha as well as Mt Tamborine

Quote- Could also be possible to do air tours of certain areas, for example Sea World Helicopters (also serves as an example as to why separation in time and space for departing air vehicles is very important). Or access to hinterland resorts or wineries

Yep, would take precision and good timing to get this most out of it safely.

What about after? Will there be a demand for such a service.

QR anomalies

• Capacity improvements on the Cleveland line through duplication and the expansion of Manly station
• Shorncliffe to Sandgate duplication and/or Shorncliffe station expansion.

Cycling infrastructure gap improvements.

Complete the bridge connection from the courts to the Normanby Bikeway

Complete the Bikeway alongside the Eastern Busway

A segregated bikeway from Woolloongabba to the Eastern Busway Bikeway along Logan Road that can connect to South City and Buranda Station.

A new pedestrian/cycle link via the Old Museum to the Ekka station.

Bowen Bridge Road and Gregory Terrace intersection rebuild with a priority pedestrian and cyclists crossing, with the removal of the slip lane north bound that turns from Brunswick St to Gregory Tce.

A new segregated cycling link from Occonnel Tce to Folkestone street.

This can provide a safe/direct segregated link for cyclists that connects Vic Park with the Ekka station and Bowen Hills station with Perry Park and the Kingsford Smith Drive Bikeway.

In addition, I believe there are new development plans to connect The Barracks with the Normanby Bikeway that crosses the Roma Street rail junction.

Sent to all outlets:

Council of Mayors Sky Taxi Announcement - An Early April Fool Joke

6th February 2023

The 'excited' Sky Taxi announcement by the SEQ Council of Mayors led by the Brisbane Lord Mayor has left RAIL Back On Track members, along with the many active and public transport advocacy groups in the region and ratepayers we are sure,  checking their calendars to confirm it wasn't in fact the 1st of April (1).

Choking congestion, spiralling cost of living, housing crisis, dozens of bus services cancelled every day, trains that only come every 30 minutes, many train stations not upgraded since the 1920s nor wheelchair accessible, all culminating in active and public transport levels at worst practice levels in SEQ. Yet here is Brisbane Lord Mayor and his merry band of Mayors spruiking Sky Taxi's that hold 4 people!

Over and over RAIL Back on Track has highlighted that the only cities to reduce congestion have prioritised active and public transport and built compact, mixed-use, diverse housing cities. Yet the Lord Mayor and his Council of Mayors continue to do the exact opposite ... and the tax and rate payers of SEQ get to foot the bill.  The joke is well and truly on the people of SEQ.

SEQ is in the middle of an active and public transport policy and leadership failure that costs each tax and rate payer dearly every day. The State Government can no longer sit on its hands and must immediately take over all public transport administration via a Public Transport Authority ( we suggest PTQ - Public Transport Queensland). BCC must be relegated to being an operator with all routes open to competitive tendering.

The Public Transport Authority must have sole responsibility for leading, planning and running services and the removal of any service planning or design by local Councils.
No limitations or restrictions to PTQ's ability to plan or run their services (e.g. services limited to Council boundaries) and consistent branding across rail, light rail, BRT, buses and ferries irrespective of service provider particularly BCC.

Further, the State Government must mandate changes to the SEQ City Plans to enforce walkable/transit oriented 15 minute neighbourhoods in all urban and commercial areas with liveable street,  e.g. #DensityDoneWell, #MissingMiddle and mixed-use development in local, district and regional centres, increased densities around all rail/busway stations and key transport interchanges/centres, and the removal of all car-parking minimums and setting of maximums in key commercial and employment.

The Brisbane Lord Mayor and SEQ Council of Mayors have wasted enough ratepayer funds and need to stop chasing pie in the sky ideas (pun totally intended) and focus on what has worked overseas. Cities like Vancouver, Paris, Copenhagen, Milan, Brussels, Vienna have upwards of 60% of trips by active and public transport.  What makes these cities similar is that they are multi-modal, compact, walkable, safe for cycling unlike SEQ.

There are MUCH more pressing matters in our public transport that need to be fixed before floating air taxi nonsense.

Some key deficiencies on the SEQ Council of Mayors marketing spin on 'air taxis' and why it is largely irrelevant:

- The capacity of a single route between two landing sites as 'estimated' at 120 passengers/hr/direction based on a 2 minute frequency.

- Note that this is extremely low, about 18 times lower than a car lane, so can't be a substitute for PT or mass transport.

- When the (high) fares are released, even less of a substitute for car and PT.

- Cannot be used to "reduce congestion" as it cannot scale for the reasons above.

- The absence of estimated patronage figures, a key omission.

- The absence of estimated fares or ticket prices, a key omission.

- The absence of insurance arrangements, a key omission.

- The absence of details of how  the service would work in the presence of multiple operators.

The Jetsons was a cartoon for kids not a Transport Vision (2). The report (1) relies heavily on company marketing material, and the SEQ Council of Mayors have failed in our view to properly consider the very pressing transport needs of SEQ.

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org


1. Bringing Advanced Air Mobility (AAM) to Brisbane, South East Queensland (SEQ), Australia
https://firebasestorage.googleapis.com/v0/b/council-of-mayors.appspot.com/o/publications%2FCOMSEQWisk_BringingAAMtoAustralia_FINAL.pdf?alt=media&token=25451aee-7bb7-4558-a9ee-8d4c4c55bbe5

2. The Jetsons Season 1 Opening and Closing Credits and Theme Song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JQbeCAlF6s

Facebook ...


I have added this post as a further comment on the FB post:

=====

RAIL - Back On Track

The "Official Meeting Program" for the overseas tour by the Council of Mayors SEQ can be found here > https://www.noosa.qld.gov.au/downloads/file/4088/2023-02-01-special-meeting-agenda pages 14-17

It is our view that this 'fact finding tour' by the SEQ Council of Mayors is not necessary and is a waste of ratepayers funds. Of the Mayors that form the Council of Mayors SEQ the only one who did not join the US Tour was Ipswich Mayor Teresa Harding. "Ipswich mayor Teresa Harding was the only SEQ mayor not to take up the US tour invitation claiming the objectives could be achieved from home." We agree Mayor Harding, well done on standing firm, and thank you.

Rather than waste $$$ on an overseas junket, the Council of Mayors SEQ would be a lot better off visiting Perth to see how a proper integrated PT system operates.

Robert

https://twitter.com/cbdbug/status/1622059145624170497

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1622254893582147584

CM --> Editorial: Brisbane's 2032 Games must deliver on legacy $

QuoteThe Courier-Mail would urge all those involved in deciding the site of the new 17,000-seat indoor stadium for the 2032 Games to not forget the event is about legacy – and the only location that makes sense into the future for this new city-changing arena is at Roma St, says the Editor.

We have always said that The Courier-Mail's strident support for Brisbane bidding to host the 2032 Olympic and Paralympic Games was based on our view that the opportunity was about far more than just a few weeks of sport, and the associated party.

We agreed all the way back in 2015 when the SEQ Council of Mayors first floated the idea that the real benefit of such a bid would be to guarantee the delivery of transport and venue infrastructure that our region's growing population would need, but that otherwise would likely fall victim to the usual endless arguments between politicians from different levels of government.

Fast-forward eight or so years and here we are, the city chosen to host the games in a touch over nine years from now – but there are ever-growing concerns the infrastructure benefits might be lost, including that the specific but necessary Games roads and rail funding is looking shaky. ...

https://twitter.com/TransitEnjoyer/status/1622991291796848640

Couriermail --> Editor's view: Time to seal the deal on 2032 Games funding $

QuoteIt has been almost a full two years since former PM Scott Morrison agreed to go 50-50 with the state in crucial Olympics infrastructure. But today, a Games funding deal remains in limbo, writes The Editor.

Last year's federal election result suggests that the former prime minister was wrong about a few things. But he is totally right when it comes to his views about the unexplained failure so far of the Palaszczuk and Albanese governments to establish a joint state and federal agency that would have oversight of – and so provide public confidence in – the infrastructure required for our 2032 Olympics and Paralympics. ...

Don't worry, airtaxis are on the way ... 

Hopefully, they can get the train lines built to Caloundra, Helidon, and Coolangatta by 2030. Plus get the busway extended from UQ to Indooroopilly which can provide a direct east west route without going via the city.

I think it can be tempting to use the Olympics to justify the construction of anything.

For example, the marketing material used to justify Wisk Air Taxis is trying to link the two, when in reality, there is no such link, and any benefit to the Olympics will be purely co-incidental. It doesn't have the scale to support anything more than joyride operations.

The usual merit process should apply, and in particular, any project that has specific and direct relevance to the Olympics. For example, I would weight line extension - heavy & light rail - to Coolangatta more favourably over line extensions to Helidon, for example.

In addition to that, the BCC bus network absolutely needs to be simplified so that it is not confusing for new passengers visiting to use it. There are far too many routes. BCC knows this because it was pointed out to them explicitly in the 2013 Bus Review Reports.

BCC has had over 10 years now between two bus reviews to make the bus network much simpler.

Yes they are moving forward on Brisbane Metro, but that project isn't extending high frequency service to anywhere that doesn't already have high frequency bus service. And there are still too many bus routes - current focus on the network is coverage and quantity of routes rather than patronage and quality of service (e.g. BUZ).

Quote from: verbatim9 on February 09, 2023, 13:02:39 PMHopefully, they can get the train lines built to Caloundra, Helidon, and Coolangatta by 2030. Plus get the busway extended from UQ to Indooroopilly which can provide a direct east west route without going via the city.

How do I break the news to you verbatim9 ??

I have no confidence that any one of those projects will be done, let alone the lot.

Sorry, but calling it as I see it. 

We are still struggling north of Beerburrum      

^^ Agreed. If we are only to get the train spur to Caloundra, I would consider that alone a major win.

According to today's Courier-Mail, the 'Gabba Olympic Stadium was never part of the 50-50 cost deal struck between Scott Morrison (who would have agreed to anything to get re-elected) and the Queensland Government. Commonwealth involvement was on condition that there be a joint Commonwealth-state authority overseeing expenditure and what it buys.

Clearly, the Queensland Government is holding out until the feds cough up money for the 'Gabba stadium deconstruction and reconstruction -- a rumoured $2 billion.

And why would new PM Albo sign up for 'half'? ...... half of what? There is no finite cap, so it is a pig in a poke really. Queensland wants Anthony Albanese to write a blank cheque with the amount to be filled in by Anna Palaszczuk, who is on the ropes electorally. Nothing could go wrong, could it? .... as she cherry-picks so-called Olympic projects for electorates of her choosing, unencumbered by a joint Commonwealth-state spending watchdog.

Quotebut that project isn't extending high frequency service to anywhere that doesn't already have high frequency bus service.

Isn't the 125, 175 and 185 getting HF?
All new areas.

The 175 kind of already was a combined frequency corridor for some of its length I'll acknowledge.
The other two are welcome.

Brisbane Times--->SEQ mayors get Canadian blueprint for Olympic transport

QuoteAs they look for an Olympic Games legacy, south-east Queensland mayors have been briefed on Vancouver's ambitious plan to overhaul transport services over 10 years.

Overhaul? 11 new bus lines? BCC? 

Is it real?

This is the outfit that can't even get rid of Route 198 after three bus reviews!!

 

Here you go ...

They have committed to two new rapid lines so far, the new Gold Glider and new line to and from from the RBH via Bowen Hills, the Valley and Storey Bridge to UQ.

Better get started on those bikeways as there is nothing in the pipeline as yet.

**I am not referring to those bikeways along creek beds and along the river. We need real segregated bikeways that follow direct transit routes, that also allow for priority at intersections.

They can also build bikeways along rail corridors. Prime example between Banyo and Boondall, plus Darra and Oxley.

Couriermail --> 'Qld's golden age': $7 billion deal done on Brisbane 2032 Games $

QuoteThe Brisbane 2032 Olympic and Paralympic Games are bolting out of the gate with a $7bn deal done to fund the major venues and focus on delivering a lasting legacy.

It will see a $2.7bn rebuild of the Gabba stadium, while the long-proposed 17,000-seat Brisbane Arena will go ahead over Roma Street Station – with a $2.5bn price tag.

The remaining almost $2bn will spent upgrading existing venues and building a few smaller facilities.

Prime Minister Anthony Albanese will visit Brisbane on Friday to ink the deal with Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk. ...

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1626223019256578051

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1626223648276385795

https://twitter.com/9NewsGoldCoast/status/1626299540251852800

Quote from: ozbob on February 17, 2023, 05:19:55 AMhttps://twitter.com/9NewsGoldCoast/status/1626299540251852800

It's great that both the arena and stadium are going ahead as planned.