RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Recently, I was a passenger in a car going to an event on the Gold Coast at the theme parks.
I usually catch the train, so I had no idea of what the four-lane Pacific Motorway looked like during afternoon peak hour in a car.

What a disaster! - the entire journey was bumper-to-bumper car park all the way from Brisbane through Logan and even past Beenleigh, it was congested. The variable traffic signs set the speed at 50-60 km per hour, which is not much more than a suburban street speed.

Our networks are not fit for purpose. They need to be designed and adapted for the lower-density regional context. Straightening out the rail line is one thing, but the express really well and truly needs to be speed to the max. I really thought about having a regional rapid train in the M1 median going 200 km/hr - that would be a game-changer.

The Gold Coast has become a massive dormitory for Brisbane office workers. It would make more sense to get some medium-rise office buildings built on the Gold Coast to take the pressure off the roads.

When we finally got to the theme parks, the sea of car parking (it was about 6.30 pm) was completely full. How did it get to this?

There is a clear need for LRT or similar extension to the theme parks and up to Hope Island. Simply building another motorway or a relief road will just result in a low capacity (2000 pax/hr/lane), dangerous and slow (50 km/hr) transport offering for car drivers. I don't think anyone wants that.

I feel like a Helensvale - theme parks LRT extension would definitely draw enough riders to justify its existence. Sure, there are buses, but trams seem to attract people just for the fact that they're trams. You could potentially even bundle some kind of free ticket into the theme park tickets to really encourage people to use it - the "I paid for it, I might as well do it" effect is shockingly strong sometimes

Quote from: AOB on December 16, 2021, 23:19:09 PM
I feel like a Helensvale - theme parks LRT extension would definitely draw enough riders to justify its existence. Sure, there are buses, but trams seem to attract people just for the fact that they're trams. You could potentially even bundle some kind of free ticket into the theme park tickets to really encourage people to use it - the "I paid for it, I might as well do it" effect is shockingly strong sometimes

Theme park mass transit is not unheard of internationally. I've been on the Disney loop line in Hong Kong. It's great! The rollingstock has all this Mickey mouse livery too. I reckon you would definitely get the patronage for an LRT line from Helensvale like you're suggesting, especially once international travel opens up again. Especially for wet and wild. You'd also have benefits for commuters in the northern Helensvale / Studio Village areas.

As for Dreamworld, some sort of APM to Coomera would be more appropriate as it's pretty close.

I think with infrastructure like this though, the theme park owners would be expected to front some of the cost. I believe Disney did this in HK but not 100% on that.

Of course this is all just complete foam at the moment. There are bigger fish to fry.

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The buses cope fine for people coming from the north and the south - in particular the TX7 does not use the M1.  The frequency is nowhere near what the light rail replaced in Stages 1 and 2, or what will be replaced in Stages 3 and 4 down to the border.

Last I looked (albeit before COVID) rail had a 75% ish market share of Brisbane CBD office workers commuting from the Gold Coast.  The people clogging the M1 are overwhelmingly locals and tradespeople.

LRT into the low density areas north of Helensvale is absolutely the wrong move, especially since the theme park demand is very peaky and basically non-existent at night.  It needs to go where the density is, or is planned to ve - ie nowhere north or west of Helensvale.  The only big pocket north of there is Coomera which is already on the rail network.

I'm not sure where the figures came from, or how they may have changed since then, but I would be surprised if the continuous car park from Brisbane to Gold Coast was mostly locals and tradies - the M1 is a limited access national route not intended for local commuting purposes. And the whole mass was SUVs and the like, not utes.

Light Rail
I think there is potential for a more local service that LRT could provide that would bring in more pax and improve services in a way that would complement the heavy rail. The general idea is to have the theme parks as one destination that is 'on the way' rather than a terminal destination. One option is to extend the LRT into the median or side of the M1 and send it past the theme parks, Oxenford, over the Coomera River and terminate it somewhere in West Coomera or Upper Coomera.

Light Rail is great - it gives Class A busway levels of capacity and frequency, at Class B levels of cost.

Quote from: #Metro on December 18, 2021, 08:35:45 AM
I'm not sure where the figures came from, or how they may have changed since then, but I would be surprised if the continuous car park from Brisbane to Gold Coast was mostly locals and tradies - the M1 is a limited access national route not intended for local commuting purposes. And the whole mass was SUVs and the like, not utes

Keep in mind you were going southbound on the M1, in the PM peak, in mid December. So you're literally experiencing some of the absolute worst conditions, due to all the Brisbane holiday-goers heading to the Gold Coast for the school holidays. This gets really bad on the Fridays when school finishes for Catholic schools (3rd Dec) and state schools (10th Dec).

So if you're experiencing heavy traffic on the main highway going from the city to the beach during school holiday peaks, then like.... Yeah. Of course. It's kinda expected. Improved public transport is not going to take much of that market, and I don't think you should expect it to



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For interest, I think there is an old timetable or ad from QR when the line was the South Coast line. During holidays, extra train services were added. How times have changed.

Quote from: SurfRail on December 18, 2021, 07:14:19 AM
The buses cope fine for people coming from the north and the south - in particular the TX7 does not use the M1.  The frequency is nowhere near what the light rail replaced in Stages 1 and 2, or what will be replaced in Stages 3 and 4 down to the border.

Last I looked (albeit before COVID) rail had a 75% ish market share of Brisbane CBD office workers commuting from the Gold Coast.  The people clogging the M1 are overwhelmingly locals and tradespeople.

LRT into the low density areas north of Helensvale is absolutely the wrong move, especially since the theme park demand is very peaky and basically non-existent at night.  It needs to go where the density is, or is planned to ve - ie nowhere north or west of Helensvale.  The only big pocket north of there is Coomera which is already on the rail network.

Not saying I support LRT extension but I was part of the Commera Chartette back in 1985 and the area was to be developed as walkable, transit oriented, mix-use, mixed housing!  Was! It hasn't but it should

QuoteNot saying I support LRT extension but I was part of the Commera Chartette back in 1985 and the area was to be developed as walkable, transit oriented, mix-use, mixed housing!  Was! It hasn't but it should

I believe the term is "Lip Service". 

Like people are going to walk to Brisbane for their day job, or evening dinner at a restaurant.

It concerns me just how low houses in parts of the northern GC are being built on what appears to be reclaimed mangrove swamp and flood plain next to a big river. How will that perform in a flood, or climate change sea level rise, or both?

The Gold Coast really needs Regional Rapid Rail - like what Paris has with RER, or Barcelona's Rodalies de Catalunya System. The train needs to really fly out of Roma Street very high speed along the straightest and most direct alignment and make the absolute minimum number of stops until it reaches Beenleigh.

^ Absolutely agreed on that front.  It will unfortunately be a long time coming.

"Wait Awhile" applies much more to us than the sandgropers.

Yes, we need a better HR service between Roma St and Coolangatta.

Yes, the northern GC needs better bus/DRT services (I was frankly fkn disgusted that the new DRT excludes Upper Coomera and Oxenford, where bus services kind of exist, but are basically useless for anyone with a job).

Yes, there needs to be a northern LR extension, but it won't come until the extension to OOL is completed. I guess the obvious route is Olsen Ave/Oxley Dr/Broadwater Ave, but where then? Hope Island Rd/Oxenford-Southport Rd is almost totally unwalkable/pedesterian unfriendly, but you'd want to get back to the HR somehow at Helensvale North/Hope Island station.

Another thing I'd like to see that I reckon would help people from Brisbane visit by public transport, is beachside storage/lockers. Because if you take the train/tram/bus to the beach, where do you keep all your stuff? Whereas if you drive, you can leave things (reasonably) securely in your vehicle.

In terms of Light rail to the theme parks.

I think light rail is only really worth doing if the corridor is carrying more than 2 million passengers per year on bus.
Previous stages have done that and done really well.

But if you are below that the base is just too low to stimulate.

The theme parks are dead in the evening.

With a few higher density villages on the western side of the M1 you might eventually do an extension from Helensvale to Coomera via those collections of villages but let's be honest that's got almost no chance of happening.

In the past I worked out that you might do light rail along the transmission line corridor through Oxenford and then hook back to Coomera so it's not as if the options not there in the future

What happened to the Gold Coast plan of articulated electric buses to connect to heavy rail stations?

They need to start implementing this plan now and order the buses and upgrade the stops.

Onboard TX services need real time information screens that cycle through with stop info, local information and advertising of local businesses. This will help businesses in the area as well as provide some advertising revenue for public transport.


Gold Coast Public Transport Plan--->Gold Coast City Transport Strategy 2031

https://youtu.be/qdoKPRFx2Mw

What Council and the State want can be very different.  BCC has more leverage to force through wacky stuff (for good and bad) than CCGC.

QuoteI think light rail is only really worth doing if the corridor is carrying more than 2 million passengers per year on bus. Previous stages have done that and done really well.

Well, I hope we apply similar logic to certain billion dollar rail extensions to certain far flung locations south of Brisbane. Seems to be little issue building heavy rail with two trains per hour, all good, but suddenly it's problems if a short cheap tram extension with more than two trams per hour is suggested.

I think if you went to Coomera there would be plenty of density to support especially if plugged into bus networks. Hope island etc should get the tram too.

Yeah but the difference with heavy rail is that whilst the frequency might be lower, the tradeoff is speed, so youre basically spending the billions to lock in the speed.
At least by 2025 we can finally put to bed the whole "2tph" narrative

With LR, its basically a high capacity mode with speeds similar to bus, but with a bit of patronage stimulation effect due to the attractiveness of trams.

So when you propose LR extensions, you're not doing it for speed, youre doing it for building patronage.
But to build that patronage, there does have to be at least some seed of existing reasonable patronage to build on.

With heavy rail, take somewhere like Springfield, the existing buses had little patronage because they were too slow, and would likely remain that way even with a frequency boost. Adding heavy rail added the speed dimension, and now people will go to extraordinary lengths to make use of it.

Perhaps thats where disagreement comes from.

Some projects are addressing capacity and patronage.
Some projects are addressing speed, not necessarily for high levels of patronage, but more for connecting different parts of the region.

So to that end, theres little point building a lot of suburban lines in SEQ, they all should mostly be ones with 4km+ station spacing and some express functionality.

QuoteWith LR, its basically a high capacity mode with speeds similar to bus, but with a bit of patronage stimulation effect due to the attractiveness of trams.

There are LRT vehicles/trams that can go 80 - 100 km/hour. There are LRT services that are used for long-distance regional and inter-regional commuting, in Germany I believe that they are called Regional Stadtbahn. Two examples are Saarbrucken Stadtbahn and Karlsruhe Stadtbahn.

There is no barrier to Light Rail playing a regional or long distance role so long as the network is appropriately engineered that way.

Rocket buses can do 100 km/hr as well, can also run on motorways, they just have to be designed to be express. This is why the comment that rail replacement buses to the Gold Coast often beats the train itself are very illuminating.

Most of our trains don't really reach those speeds on the current track with the stopping patterns that they have. It is also much more difficult to get speed from trains simply because omitting stations and running express reduces line capacity exactly when it is needed most - during peak hour.

Yarrabilba, for example, takes 45 - 50 minutes by road. Rocket buses could use the motorway and plug into anywhere on the existing TL network or just do the BCC way, and enter the busway and over the Captain Cook Bridge. A similar rocket bus system to serve the Hills District operated in Sydney, NSW before the metro was built. And these were a similar distance and time away from the Sydney CBD as in the Brisbane case (45 km route length from Tallawong, NSW to Central when fully built out).

Only when this BRT express bus system started to get lots of patronage did they then consider rail - not two trains per hour - but a real metro with trains every 4 minutes in peak and every 10 minutes all other times.

Back to topic, this tram extension would be cheap compared to virtually everything else in the suggested TransLink pipeline, and I think it will further strengthen the spine of local region services in this area. If there is suggestion that the stations would not get enough pax, slap a park and ride on it, or repurpose some of the car park lands that the theme parks already hold for the tram.

With a tram extension, there will be less need for parking and it could be a very good deal for Village Roadshow - you give us land, we give you the tram.

What specifically makes it a 'cheap' extension compared to other ones?

What are the other ones? This builds on an existing system in a location that probably won't require land resumption or mass replacement of underground utilities as it's in a motorway corridor.

QuoteWhat happened to the Gold Coast plan of articulated electric buses to connect to heavy rail stations?

They need to start implementing this plan now and order the buses and upgrade the stops.

They are just going to use the regular bus I think. Why would TransLink pay more?

Guessing you haven't been following the City of Gold Coast transport plan closely?

Not really, as I focus more on BCC for obvious reasons.

QuoteThe number of people using public transport on the Gold Coast continues to grow (refer Figure 2). Since the commencement of light
rail in 2014, overall public transport travel has increased by more than 25 per cent. More than 24 million public transport trips were
completed on the Gold Coast in the 2016-17 financial year; a third of them on light rail (refer Figure 3).

https://www.goldcoast.qld.gov.au/Council-region/Future-plans-budget/Plans-policies-strategies/Our-plans/Public-Transport-Plan-2018-2028

What is interesting is the jump in PT pax due to light rail, despite the fact that

- GC Light rail doesn't go anywhere that a bus didn't go prior,
- It is more or less the same frequency as the previous bus corridor spine
- The LRT introduced "forced" transfer on almost all prior bus services
- The tram stops half way along the GC and doesn't connect to the Airport

A simple, short extension of the tram to the theme parks is likely to pull much more pax than a competing alternative bus upgrade, based on this observation.
In addition, if a land-for-tram swap deal is done with Village Roadshow, you could get a nice Park and Ride space with almost no additional construction required for that, which would mean that it will be busy at all hours.

** EDIT **

Page Figure 9, Page 17 of the Gold Coast City Council PT Plan 2031 shows LRT extension options through Coomera and into Pimpama, so it is already in the plan as a possibility it seems! 

QuotePage Figure 9, Page 17 of the Gold Coast City Council PT Plan 2031 shows LRT extension options through Coomera and into Pimpama, so it is already in the plan as a possibility it seems!

It literally says bus but ok 

Quote
It literally says bus but ok 

Scrap the bus!

I'm just saying at this stage Robina and Harbour Town are probably the next extensions (as seen on the transport plan) to do due to higher patronage on those bus corridors, and reasonable density.

How would you run Harbour Town? As a spur, or would you have every second tram go there instead of Helensvale, resulting in a split frequency beyond GCUH?

Not saying it's a bad thing in this case btw, provided they make sure the trams that continue to Helensvale coordinate fairly well with the heavy rail.

Branching splits frequency dramatically, but I'm warming to the idea of a northern route.

If the frequency was increased to a tram every 6 minutes, that's 10 trams per hour, and five on each branch. That works out to a tram every 12 minutes which is just below the magic 15 minute frequent standard. Which is reasonable.

The other extensions or lines I would do as BRT feeders. Any more branching / "light rail everywhere" will dilute the frequency below the basic 15 minutes making it unappealing. That's what we do with heavy rail, not LRT 🙂🙂

I think by the time Robina is due to be built, it would be beyond 2032, so you could run one pattern from Harbour town to Robina and one from Helensvale to Tweed Heads.

6 min frequency on the branches, 3 min frequency on the common section.

You dont split frequency, you should add frequency. In the case of the Gold Coast it works because the common section from GCUH to Christine Avenue is the dense part and could justify 3 min frequency in the 2030s.

Quote6 min frequency on the branches, 3 min frequency on the common section.

You dont split frequency, you should add frequency. In the case of the Gold Coast it works because the common section from GCUH to Christine Avenue is the dense part and could justify 3 min frequency in the 2030s.

All things equal, branching divides frequency. It has to. Rather, your suggestion compensates for this service dilution effect by adding more trams, drivers etc to the network. Doubling the frequency like that would double the cost because more labour hours would be required to operate it.

Decent frequency can be maintained without having having to buy more trams or add more services than necessary by limiting branching to two LRT lines. If more capacity is needed (at higher frequency it makes more sense to just increase the tram size) then the existing vehicles can be expanded.

It's only halving the frequency if you have a pre existing line and stations that you steal service from.

When they opened the Redcliffe line, they didnt take the existing half hourly service and divide the frequency to 1tph to Caboolture + 1tph to Kippa Ring.
They increased the number of trains so that all stations maintained 2tph.

Same goes for Richlands. When it opened Oxley and Darra only got 2tph and Corinda only ever got 4tph weekdays.
They could have divided frequency to 1tph to both Ipswich and Richlands but they didn't
They bumped Darra to city to 4tph 7 days a week, and maintained 2tph to ispwich.
No dividing going on.

So saying

QuoteAll things equal,

is incorrect in this circumstance because thinking of all recent line opening in Australia, new branches have always come with additional services to maintain services.

And its a waste of time always bringing up the division of frequency hypothetical because it not the way things are done in Australia.

Branching increases frequency on the common section or can permit a new express service.

It's not incorrect. Which is why running things according that proposal is going to double the labour component of the operating costs.

Basics: branching (or how transit is like a river)
https://humantransit.org/2011/02/basics-branching-or-how-transit-is-like-a-river.html

QuoteTo sum up, we should suspicious whenever we see a branch drawn as though one line can effortlessly divide into two equal lines.  Often, such a branch will be called an extension, a very slightly misleading word because it suggests that an existing, known quantity of service is being extended.  In fact, a branch always means one of three things.  Either

- points beyond the branching point have less frequent service or
- one of the branches operates as a shuttle, requiring a connection, or
- in a few rare cases, the train itself comes apart, with some cars proceeding along one branch and some along the other.

Geometrically, it has to mean one of those things, and it may not be the one you prefer.  So before you decide whether the service is useful to you, or whether you support a proposed transit project whose map looks like this, you may want to ask which of those it is.

QuoteWhich is why running things according that proposal is going to double the labour component of the operating costs.

What's wrong with that?
Any increase in frequency (Eg even a BUZ) is doubling labor costs.
Its part of creating good transport.

Good luck with that.

I'd be leaning towards a 12 minute headway on each service between 7am and 7pm for a common 6 minute headway on the core (which is actually most of the system).  12 minutes is plenty for Helensvale and Harbour Town, and it doesn't overcook the core.  At the moment, Helensvale is over-serviced if anything with a 7-8 minute headway, Parkwood East is the quietest station on the system and I expect Parkwood sees bugger all movement outside peak parking times.  A less frequent service for Helensvale is not going to be an issue, especially while trains are half-hourly in the off-peak.  Even if that changes, 15 minutes connecting to 12 minutes is still more or less OK, and tons better than only 1 tram in 4 actually connecting to a train without a lengthy wait.

From 5am-7pm and 7pm-9pm it could drop off to every 15 minutes for both routes, for a combined 7-8 minute headway from GCUH to wherever the southern branch is (say Robina). 

From 9pm to last service, I would run 4tph Helensvale to Coolangatta.  Harbour Town to GCUH and Robina to Miami could be shuttles at the same headway.  There is already a set of turnouts at GCUH that would let this work.

I expect the overnight service on Sat/Sun morning would likely only be Coolangatta to say GCUH (consistent with what it is now), and buses could provide service elsewhere.

I've got to be honest, not a big fan of a 12 minute frequency between Helensvale and GCUH, because it doesn't result in a clockface connection with trains. I'd rather 15 tbh, or 10 if it was going to be practical. That'd mean 12 tph on the core though. Not sure how viable that is right now, but maybe in the future? You'd then have 6 tph GCUH-Helensvale and 6tph GCUH-Harbour Town 7am-7pm. 8 tph in the core and 4 tph to both destinations 5am-7am and 7pm-11pm or maybe even 12am?

Another thing I'd like to see is maybe some earlier morning trams or even an extended 700 bus to meet the earliest two trains at Helensvale, as the only way to get there at the moment would be drive/taxi/rideshare or walk or cycle if you happen to live close enough. Doesn't seem to be an issue with late night services as the last southbound train (weekdays) arrives Helensvale 12:07am and tram departs at 12:15 (only goes to GCUH, but there's a connecting 700 bus with an 8 minute wait).

^ You could get away with 15 minute headways I guess.  If anything, I think Olsen Ave probably deserves a 10 minute frequency, but that would result in a 10 minute headway overlaid on a 15 minute Helensvale headway and you would have gaps instead of a nice even pattern.

In hindsight, the Helensvale extension could have opened with 15 min frequency, and just at GCHU terminators, and then an Olsen Avenue extension would have been 15 min frequency as well.

An idea I've toyed with is that the northern extension should be like this:

Frank St actually warrants LRT due to the patronage on the 704, so branch from southport and loop around and terminate at GCUH from the north.

My thinking for Harbour Town is the station should be north of Brisbane Road pointing north to ensure it can be extended further.  You'd resume the south-easternmost corner of the car park near the Macca's.  If you needed to keep Lewis Land happy you would pay for a multi-story somewhere to replace the lost bays.

Basic layout would be similar to Broadbeach south, with 2 island platforms (trams inner, buses outer).

The Olsen Ave and Brisbane Road lines merge in the intersection, single track pair into the south-eastern corner of the Harbour Town site, station and bus interchange there.  It could be set up to allow bus access and egress through the same point for bus movements to or from the same directions, so driving on the tracks.  It would otherwise be similar to the way the 745 gets into that little stretch of busway at Emerald Lakes at the Nerang-Broadbeach Road / Ross Street intersection.

Bus access to/from the Helensvale direction could be through a bit of dedicated busway connecting to and from Brisbane Road around where the current bus stop is.  Bus access to the north could be using a slip lane, and from the north could be through the McDonald's roundabout.

It looks like you could also have a shunt neck / small holding yard behind the Macca's, which would be off-line and therefore not interrupt the running lines.

How you'd get trams along the Frank St corridor is another question - it would be doable but I expect it would be more challenging than Palm Beach.

While we are talking about bus service to new suburbs...

No buses from Coomera station to the new housing estates from the train station at 7 pm on Sat night.

Google says walk half an hour, but it's dark and raining. Uber will take 15 min to arrive and cost $10.

I also had to wait half an hour for the train as well. More than an hour to do a trip a car could do in 25 min!

This is not good!!

Maybe council should pay for more services?

Quite frankly this is a state wide problem. Look at the 369, 321, 379. That's services a few km from the brisbane cbd that have services stopping before 6.30pm. And don't look at the 360, 361, 363 and 364.

God forbid should you look at routes towards Chermside or gcl routes haha.

Quote from: HappyTrainGuy on October 22, 2022, 20:05:49 PMMaybe council should pay for more services?

Quite frankly this is a state wide problem. Look at the 369, 321, 379. That's services a few km from the brisbane cbd that have services stopping before 6.30pm. And don't look at the 360, 361, 363 and 364.

God forbid should you look at routes towards Chermside or gcl routes haha.

What do all these routes have in common? They aren't sent straight to the city down the closest main road and instead have some portion of East-West stops (to varying degrees). The sooner BCC and Translink realise that not all trips are to and from the city the better.