Go card fare structure - clean slate, what would you do?

[ozbob]

Some thoughts:

Free tavel per se is a significant leakage and rort.  There are just so many ways to rort it.

1. Pull back the base (flag-fall) by a $1.50, all zones.  So a one zone go card fare (peak adult) = $1.55. Zone 23 = $17.95

2. Off peak discount 30%.  Off peak zone one adult $1.09

3. Change 2am touch on to 7am touch off.

4. 50% fare reduction after 8 journeys per week - no free travel.

5. Increase number of transfers allowed in journey from 3 to 4.  Keep 6 hour limit, but change last transfer time from 3.30 hour to 4hours.

6. Planned fare increases of 7.5% for next two years frozen.

To start things off ...   

[Stillwater]

Pls explain -

3: Change 2am touch-on to 7am touch-off

[somebody]

I'd drop the flag fall even further - more like $1 1 zone peak.

I'd only discount after 10 trips/week, and ensure it only applies to the cheapest trips of the week.

Get rid of the differential price for zones 10+ as compared to 1-9 on one journey by doubling the numbers of zones beyond zone 9 - so 37 zones.

Get rid of differential zone boundaries bus vs rail.

Remove the consolidated rounding errors.

Agree with touch off pre 7am = off peak and freezing fare rises.

I'd like to treat counter peak as off peak, but it seems too problematic.

Pls explain -

3: Change 2am touch-on to 7am touch-off

He means for peak vs off peak.  Touch offs before 7am = off peak.

[ozbob]

Pls explain -

3: Change 2am touch-on to 7am touch-off

Yes, present off peak timings are all touch ons - after 9am, before 3.30pm, after 7pm and before 2am.  Change 2am touch on to 7am touch off.

[ozbob]

Get rid of differential zone boundaries bus vs rail.

Yes, that should be done if the flag fall is adjusted.

[SurfRail]

Get rid of the differential price for zones 10+ as compared to 1-9 on one journey by doubling the numbers of zones beyond zone 9 - so 37 zones.

There would are so few trips of 8+ that I doubt this would be worth it at all. 

And how do you do it on a geographical basis anyway?  You'd have to make all the fare zones smaller system-wide, or subject the Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast to massive fare penalties as their bands would be smaller. 

[somebody]

Get rid of the differential price for zones 10+ as compared to 1-9 on one journey by doubling the numbers of zones beyond zone 9 - so 37 zones.

There would are so few trips of 8+ that I doubt this would be worth it at all. 

And how do you do it on a geographical basis anyway?  You'd have to make all the fare zones smaller system-wide, or subject the Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast to massive fare penalties as their bands would be smaller.

What I mean is get rid of the idea of 1 zone vs 2 zones is a 53c difference, but 9 zones vs 10 zones is a 119c difference.  Double + rounding difference.  It's actually cheaper to get out at a zone 9/10 station and touch off then touch on with a different go card, ignoring frequent user.

[SurfRail]

What I mean is get rid of the idea of 1 zone vs 2 zones is a 53c difference, but 9 zones vs 10 zones is a 119c difference.  Double + rounding difference.  It's actually cheaper to get out at a zone 9/10 station and touch off then touch on with a different go card, ignoring frequent user.

That's just adjusting the fare scale, isn't it?  No need to go drawing more line on a map.

Nobody is going to get out at Beenleigh or Caboolture just to touch off and on again.  If they do, good luck to them!

[somebody]

I wouldn't be giving these people a discount in that way.  I was looking to remove the anomaly while keeping fares the same to the CBD.

[Mr X]

Free tavel per se is a significant leakage and rort.  There are just so many ways to rort it.

Agreed. No free apples in this state.

1. Pull back the base (flag-fall) by a $1.50, all zones.  So a one zone go card fare (peak adult) = $1.55. Zone 23 = $17.95

Concessions would thus be 75 cents? Seems a little cheap and economically not feasible, especially when a higher proportion of trips would be 1 or 2 zones. Who would pay more to make up this loss in revenue? State can't afford it. Cut services? (and no, cutting the 314, 198 and cop-out milk runs of the like won't be enough).

2. Off peak discount 30%.  Off peak zone one adult $1.09
3. Change 2am touch on to 7am touch off.

Agreed.

4. 50% fare reduction after 8 journeys per week - no free travel.

How about;
Pay 80% of the fare for journeys 8-10
Pay 50% of the fare for journeys 10+

5. Increase number of transfers allowed in journey from 3 to 4.  Keep 6 hour limit, but change last transfer time from 3.30 hour to 4hours.

Agreed.

6. Planned fare increases of 7.5% for next two years frozen.

As with #1. How do you propose the state meets this loss in revenue?

[somebody]

As with #1. How do you propose the state meets this loss in revenue?

Increased PT use reducing road and parking spending.

[ozbob]

I think increases in patronage would replace any lost revenue.  Money lost with rorting associated with free travel reduced as well, all though with any journey cap structure there will always be some rorting, but a lot less I would suggest if there is still a fare cost as opposed to free.

One thing is clear if they continue down the present fare path, there will be increasing levels of community grief and broader economic impacts.

[ozbob]

Quote

    4. 50% fare reduction after 8 journeys per week - no free travel.

How about;
Pay 80% of the fare for journeys 8-10
Pay 50% of the fare for journeys 10+

Could work.  I think the main thing is replace the free travel with a significant concession but still a fare as such.

[ozbob]

If they don't change the free travel journey cap thing, I really think they should kick up the number of transfers allowed in a journey to make direct rorting very difficult (say 8) ... that will be inconsequential in terms of loss in itself but would close off the Monday rort ..

[Arnz]

75% of the fare for trips 9-10.
50% of the fare from trip 11 onwards.

I pretty agree with a decrease of fares across the board, however I'm not sure to agree with the suggested fare tables put up in the thread so far.

1, 2 and free is maintained to elderly pensioners at the most, provided they have ID and so forth.  Other pensioners (eg disabled), and those with Health Care Cards (eg Jobseekers) has the 50% off rate along with the school/TAFE/Uni students for the duration of the HCC/PCC.  Of course, the Centrelink rules apply for those jobseekers not complying (lose concession if not actively looking for work).

[somebody]

I reiterate that I don't support giving discounts to 9-5 10/week commuters.

[Golliwog]

I think I would much rather we adopt a daily/weekly card system like what is on the oyster card in London.

The existing setup works for most cases, but I can't say I'm a fan of the 9 journeys --> Free being independent of the zones previously travelled in. There should be a discount/incentive for those who are frequent users which this gives.

[somebody]

I think I would much rather we adopt a daily/weekly card system like what is on the oyster card in London.

Really?  Is that a Melbourne type system where you have to load the pass on the card, or is it automatically loaded?  I'd be dead against the former.

[ozbob]

As I understand it, it would take around 12 months and some expenditure to bring the system up to the point where it can handle daily capping and periodical ticketing options.  Not sure if the Government would do that.  They did however when in opposition commit to a broader fare review ( eg. Queensland Times --> LNP to review ticket prices )

[Fares_Fair]

 

[techblitz]

Im against freezing the fares for 2 years.Fare increases should at least be c.p.i based and not over the top.Every one is entitled to a payrise including translink

Also i cannot see them changing the fare system simply because of the minority rorters.The majority of passengers are honest travellers too busy to worry about getting discounts on the weekly travel bill.
As a heavy user who can easily do 10 transfers in quick succession i could probably accept the increase in transfer limits.

[Golliwog]

I think I would much rather we adopt a daily/weekly card system like what is on the oyster card in London.

Really?  Is that a Melbourne type system where you have to load the pass on the card, or is it automatically loaded?  I'd be dead against the former.

Automatic of course. PT should be easy to use. I recall all the flyers you got with the Oyster card said you could put your own weekly passon it, but also said if you just touch on and off as you use it, it will calculate the cheapest fare and give you that for your travels.

[ozbob]

Twitter

1h Kate Hunter Kate Hunter ‏@katelhunter

Family trip to city cost us $35 in bus fares. There are only 5 of us. Not like we're the Duggars. And only 10km round trip! @brisbanecityqld

[Fares_Fair]

I have noted many times here that it is not worthwhile or fare friendly for families to travel via public transport.
That's why we don't.

It's cheaper for a family to drive.

[ozbob]

NSW --> Family Funday Sunday

Funday FamilyEvery Sunday you can explore Sydney and surrounds with your family, without spending a lot, with our Family Funday Sunday tickets.

For $2.50 per person, your family can enjoy a fun day out with unlimited travel on Sydney's buses, trains, ferries and light rail every Sunday. The ticket will even take you to Newcastle and Wollongong!

V/Line --> Family Traveller

Allows one adult to take up to two children (aged 16 years and under) free during off-peak times. At all other times, one child can travel free and one child needs to have a valid ticket. 

Perth --> FamilyRider

FamilyRider allows unlimited system-wide travel for a group of up to seven people (two of whom can be standard fare passengers) on weekends and public holidays.  Cost $9.30


FamilyRider can also be used after 6.00pm Monday to Thursday, after 3.00pm on Fridays and after 9.00am on weekdays during school holidays.
FamilyRider is available after 8.30am in zones 5 to 9 during school holidays.
FamilyRider is only available as a cash ticket on the day of travel.

Melbourne has capped myki on weekends.  $3.30 daily cap.  http://www.myki.com.au/Fares/Metro-fares

Old release --> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=2006.msg9475#msg9475

[techblitz]

 

and thats most likely why people prefer to sit in sunshine coast gridlock on the weekends when they head up north for the day

[ozbob]

Yes, it is sad. Other jurisdictions do it a lot better hey?

Simply allowing children to accompany an adult (using go card) on weekends would help a lot.  What is straightforward elsewhere is always it seems just too hard in the dumber than dumb state ... 

[Gazza]

Main things for me would be:

-Daily cap based upon 2x the longest trip
-No weekly cap.
-Reduce the flagfall, especially for 1 and 2 zone trips.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Reduce the cost of the shorter zone trips. Jack up the prices for longer zone trips.
Daily caps.
Family GoCard. 2 adults + 5 children. Payment based on the price of 1 adult + 1 child to get more families travelling. No cap benefits.

[Fares_Fair]

NSW --> Family Funday Sunday

Funday FamilyEvery Sunday you can explore Sydney and surrounds with your family, without spending a lot, with our Family Funday Sunday tickets.

For $2.50 per person, your family can enjoy a fun day out with unlimited travel on Sydney's buses, trains, ferries and light rail every Sunday. The ticket will even take you to Newcastle and Wollongong!

V/Line --> Family Traveller

Allows one adult to take up to two children (aged 16 years and under) free during off-peak times. At all other times, one child can travel free and one child needs to have a valid ticket. 

Perth --> FamilyRider

FamilyRider allows unlimited system-wide travel for a group of up to seven people (two of whom can be standard fare passengers) on weekends and public holidays.  Cost $9.30


FamilyRider can also be used after 6.00pm Monday to Thursday, after 3.00pm on Fridays and after 9.00am on weekdays during school holidays.
FamilyRider is available after 8.30am in zones 5 to 9 during school holidays.
FamilyRider is only available as a cash ticket on the day of travel.

Melbourne has capped myki on weekends.  $3.30 daily cap.  http://www.myki.com.au/Fares/Metro-fares

Old release --> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=2006.msg9475#msg9475

This perhaps would make a good press release...

[ozbob]

--> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=2006.msg103684#msg103684

[ozbob]

... Family GoCard. 2 adults + 5 children. Payment based on the price of 1 adult + 1 child to get more families travelling. No cap benefits.

Good suggestion HTG, thanks ..

[ozbob]

Media release 10 July 2012

SEQ: Call for review of fare structure for public transport

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers has called for an immediate review of the fare structure for public transport in south-east Queensland.

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"The latest TransLink Tracker has confirmed that fare affordability is at an all time low (1). The Passenger load survey shows a similar dim picture (2).  Patronage growth is now stunted, with flow on effects for traffic congestion, environmental impacts and trauma costs."

"Further planned fare increases of 7.5% for 2013 and 2014 will just further compound the present unaffordability."

"The fare structure as it is a failure.  Cost of short journeys is relatively too expensive (3). Lack of family tickets as for other states further restricts public transport use as a choice (4)."

"Concession public transport travel should be afforded to all health care card holders, this is done in all states except Queensland.  Queensland is fast becoming unaffordable for many."

"Messing around with journey caps as has been recently implemented doesn't address the fundamental structural failure of the present fare table."

"It is time for the Queensland Government to actually implement the ' passenger focussed ' rhetoric."   

References:

1. http://translink.com.au/resources/about-translink/reporting-and-publications/2011-12-quarterly-report-jan-to-mar.pdf

2. http://translink.com.au/resources/about-translink/reporting-and-publications/2012-q1-passenger-load-survey.pdf

3. 1 Jul 2012: SEQ: Reduce or eliminate the fare 'flag-fall'  http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=8673.0

4. 8th July 2012 Lack of family ticket arrangements public transport in Queensland  http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=2006.msg103684#msg103684

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[Tones67]

Even though I'm a Go Card user, I would think there's a legal issue charging people an extra 20% based on your payment method. To be slugged that much more because you need to pay cash (a paper ticket) surely must border on illegal.

If you went into ANY other retail outlet and were told "I'm charging you 20% to pay with cash", you'd walk out...laughing.

And yes, fares are disgusting to start with anyway.

[HappyTrainGuy]

...walk straight to the Good Guys

[somebody]

Even though I'm a Go Card user, I would think there's a legal issue charging people an extra 20% based on your payment method. To be slugged that much more because you need to pay cash (a paper ticket) surely must border on illegal.

If you went into ANY other retail outlet and were told "I'm charging you 20% to pay with cash", you'd walk out...laughing.

And yes, fares are disgusting to start with anyway.

I has been legal to charge a surcharge for credit cards for a number of years, so I'm not sure there would be a problem.

[SurfRail]

Even though I'm a Go Card user, I would think there's a legal issue charging people an extra 20% based on your payment method. To be slugged that much more because you need to pay cash (a paper ticket) surely must border on illegal.

If you went into ANY other retail outlet and were told "I'm charging you 20% to pay with cash", you'd walk out...laughing.

And yes, fares are disgusting to start with anyway.

I'm a lawyer, and I can assure you (on a purely informal basis, I take no responsibility ) there is no such issue on legality whatsoever.  They are free to charge what they like and to maintain a differential between paper tickets and go cards, and there is a good reason for that to be the case.  I am happy to be corrected but I am not aware of any legal authority that contradicts me on this point. 

There is also no basis in the argument that pops up occasionally about "bus drivers have to accept cash because it's legal tender", because that argument is grounded on a fundamental misconception about what legal tender actually means.  Any person can specify the method of payment for a transaction - the only practical thing "legal tender" really means is that if you refuse payment in cash for an existing debt, you might lose your priority against other creditors if the debtor goes bankrupt.  Not applicable where somebody rocks up and wants to hop on board and does not have a pre-paid ticket where your system is 100% prepaid.

[techblitz]

while i think 20 percent difference is unfair (5-10 percent is better)
translink wont budge on any of thier ticketing arrangements any time soon.
'Hit the paper ticket holders and make them get a gocard.Probably the only way to do this is to have a massive gap between the 2 in price'

And after seeing 3 people IN SUCCESSION topping up thier gocards for 5 bux yesterday on the 680 i really hope they get the private operator topup limits sorted as this can also slow buses down just as much as a paper ticket purchaser.

[somebody]

And after seeing 3 people IN SUCCESSION topping up thier gocards for 5 bux yesterday on the 680 i really hope they get the private operator topup limits sorted as this can also slow buses down just as much as a paper ticket purchaser.

I say charge the buggers.

[STB]

Isn't it the same in other cities where they charge you a higher price is you are buying a paper based ticket over an electronic ticket ala Go Card, among others?

Personally I've got no problem with the higher charge, you are wasting people's time with buying a paper ticket from the driver, when you could be just touching and getting on board.  To the remaining people who are still buying paper tickets, STOP DOING THAT AND GET A FREAKING GO CARD EVEN IF YOU ONLY USE PUBLIC TRANSPORT ONCE OR TWICE A YEAR!!!   (I feel better now that's off my chest)