Article: Bid to end timetables

[ozbob]

From the Sunday Mail 12th February 2012 page 15

Bid to end timetables

[ozbob]

Media release 12th February 2012

SEQ: Ferny Grove line - turn up and go trains

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers has welcomed the LNP policy announcement of increased train frequency - 15 minutes on the Ferny Grove line weekdays between the peaks (1).

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"Public transport must be fast, direct and frequent. The Ferny Grove line is ideally placed to have an increased train frequency (2).  This will drive patronage increases and cuts down on waiting time with bus/rail connections particularly."

"The Ferny Grove line is now in the final stages of being duplicated and will be able to support the increased train frequency.  This is a sound policy and will be welcomed by the community. The fare box will be improved, with broader economic benefits in terms of reduced congestion, lessened environmental impacts and a reduction in road trauma costs for the health sector."

"RAIL Back On Track has long called for improvements in out of peak train frequency on all lines. In time further incremental improvements will need to be made on the rest of the network (3)."

References:

1. Bid to end timetables Sunday Mail 12th February 2012 page 15

2. 10 Jan 2012 SEQ: Trips and frequency? http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=7440.0

3. 24 Jan 2012: SEQ: Core Frequent Network: Get Rail Back On Track! http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=7530.0

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[Stillwater]

It would seem we will get a series of announcements from the LNP along these lines – policy in dribs and drabs.  When the music stops on March 24 and the candidates scramble for a seat, someone will tally up the one-off announcements so that, collectively, they form a universal transport policy of sorts.  That is not to detract from this announcement, it is to be welcomed.  Could it be tied to a Cleveland-Ferny Grove light rail?  You never know when you get the barest of information.

When might we see the rollout of 15-minute services off-peak across other lines?

[ozbob]

No, the Cleveland Non Solution has disappeared down the plug hole... probably because this announcement has been in the pipeline.

This is a good solid policy by the LNP, has been costed $18M for the first two years.  Also has some implications for Ashgrove electorate as well of course.

Map of Ashgrove electorate --> here!

[Stillwater]

Okay, here is Campbell Newman's media statement:

http://lnp.org.au/news/leader-of-the-lnp/lnp-train-plan-means-no-need-for-timetables

15-minute off-peak scheduling is to occur on the Ferny Grove line initially for two years and only after those two years will it be considered for other lines.  People on the Beenleigh, Caboolture, Cleveland and Ipswich lines will have to wait until March 2013 before they may see 15-minute frequency. (Darra to Northgate already 15 minute frequency.)

Of course, we will need to elect an LNP government first.

[#Metro]

$9 million per year to run increased frequency on the FG line is very expensive for a train service IMHO vs Bus which usually is around $3-6 million to BUZ. The costs on rail are just far too high, they must come down if we want to see frequency extended across the network.

On the other hand, I CANNOT BELIEVE THAT FINALLY WE SEE A FREQUENT TRAIN POLICY!

[#Metro]

No, the Cleveland Non Solution has disappeared down the plug hole... probably because this announcement has been in the pipeline.

This is a good solid policy by the LNP, has been costed $18M for the first two years.  Also has some implications for Ashgrove electorate as well of course.

Hallelujah!

[somebody]

Okay, here is Campbell Newman's media statement:

http://lnp.org.au/news/leader-of-the-lnp/lnp-train-plan-means-no-need-for-timetables

15-minute off-peak scheduling is to occur on the Ferny Grove line initially for two years and only after those two years will it be considered for other lines.  People on the Beenleigh, Caboolture, Cleveland and Ipswich lines will have to wait until March 2013 before they may see 15-minute frequency. (Darra to Northgate already 15 minute frequency.)

Of course, we will need to elect an LNP government first.

As compared to Labor's policy which is when pigs fly.

[ozbob]

http://lnp.org.au/news/leader-of-the-lnp/lnp-train-plan-means-no-need-for-timetables

LNP train plan means no need for timetables

    Written by  Campbell Newman

South-East Queensland commuters travelling weekdays on the Ferny Grove railway line will be able to catch a train every 15 minutes in off peak times during the day as part of a two year $18 million trial if an LNP Government is elected.

LNP Leader Campbell Newman said an LNP Government would act to make public transport more reliable and convenient to use, starting with a doubling of daytime off peak train services on the Ferny Grove line.

"Weekday commuters currently wait 30 minutes for a daytime off peak train on the Ferny Grove line, but under the LNP's plan they will barely need a timetable on weekdays with trains to run every 15 minutes during the day," he said.

"Public transport will grow but it needs to be more frequent, more reliable and easier to use to encourage more commuters to catch buses and trains.

"That's why an LNP Government will double daytime off peak services under this two year trial on the Ferny Grove railway line, and if this trial is successful we will look to expand it to other lines."

Mr Newman said unlike the tired, 20 year old Labor Government which had never had a real plan to encourage public transport, the LNP was committed to revitalizing the public transport network.

"As Lord Mayor, I championed the use of public transport putting 700 new buses on the roads and instigated the high frequency 'BUZ' service. If elected Premier, I want to improve rail services as well," he said.

"The LNP's plan to increase off peak services on the Ferny Grove line comes on top of our commitment to reintroduce the weekly discount for regular go card commuters.

"Under an LNP Government, regular commuters who have used go cards to travel on buses, trains and ferries in south-east Queensland for nine journeys in a week will be rewarded with any additional trips free.

"Ultimately, my vision is to have a reliable and cost effective public transport system where people along most routes won't need to even look at a timetable.

"This is all part of the LNP's plans to improve transport infrastructure and ease traffic congestion right across Queensland, whether it's our Roads to Resources program in regional areas or our public transport plans in Brisbane.

"It's about planning properly for the future and delivering better infrastructure ahead of time, not just when a crisis hits. It's time for a change. It's time to get Queensland back on track."

Find out more about the CanDo LNP Action: Improved Train Frequency policy

[ozbob]

$9 million per year to run increased frequency on the FG line is very expensive for a train service IMHO vs Bus which usually is around $3-6 million to BUZ. The costs on rail are just far too high, they must come down if we want to see frequency extended across the network.

On the other hand, I CANNOT BELIEVE THAT FINALLY WE SEE A FREQUENT TRAIN POLICY!

But rail can move a lot more pax, hence it is actually more cost effective.  I think this will be very successful in terms of patronage increases.

The signs are that the 10 journey cap (9 if LNP is returned) is already having an effect.

There must be TUZ publicity when implemented, something still not done for Darra to Northgate ...  

[somebody]

Hmm, looks like it is only between peaks that they are planning to increase.

[ozbob]

Media release 12 February 2012

SEQ: Core Frequent Network: Finally, a policy on core frequency!



RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers has welcomed the LNP policy announcement of increased train frequency - 15 minutes on the Ferny Grove line weekdays between the peaks (1).

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"RAIL Back On Track members have long argued that the fastest, cheapest way to improve the public transport system in Brisbane is improving the rail service out of peak train frequency as part of a larger 'Core Frequent Network'. South-East Queensland is runs an archaic rail timetable, a timetable that places running world-class rail services like Perth have gotten rid of long ago! The failure to address all day poor rail frequency has been long standing."

"It is a relief to finally see a decent policy on frequent services, rather than expensive 'big ticket' projects which do nothing about adding actual services."

"All day core frequency and a decent span of hours, especially on rail, are central to having a decent transport system. Weekend services are not included in the package, but we strongly suggest upgrades to weekend frequency be included as data from the BUZ initiative shows 150-200 % increases in patronage on weekends (2,3)."

"It is a myth that we have to wait for big ticket, multi-billion dollar construction projects that take decades to deliver before we can get improvements to bus and train service frequency. There are many parts of the bus and rail network that can have more services now, very cheaply with little or no new infrastructure."

"RAIL Back On Track members and the community would be interested to hear what other parties and candidates have on offer with regards to Core Frequency and an overall Core Frequent Network."

"As RAIL Back on Track has always said, services must be frequent, bottom line!"

References:

1. Ferny Grove line - turn up and go trains  http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=7648.0

2. BUZ Routes, Frequency + Reliability - the winning formula  http://ses.library.usyd.edu.au/bitstream/2123/6058/1/thredbo10-themeA-Warren.pdf

3. Building a Core Frequent Network  http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=5173.0

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> LNP announces more Brisbane trains

[Arnz]

Good to hear.

How about extending Richlands-Bowen Hills trains to Petrie. 

[Arnz]

$9 million per year to run increased frequency on the FG line is very expensive for a train service IMHO vs Bus which usually is around $3-6 million to BUZ. The costs on rail are just far too high, they must come down if we want to see frequency extended across the network.

On the other hand, I CANNOT BELIEVE THAT FINALLY WE SEE A FREQUENT TRAIN POLICY!

FG is a shorter line than most of the network (Doomben obviously shorter), so I would assume it's easier to TUZ FG first.  I would imagine it would cost more for busier Ipswich or Caboolture services due to the longer line/s and shared freight/interurban traffics.

[Derwan]

This is the first DECENT public transport policy that has been put forward by the opposition.

But still no word on Cross River Rail?   

The LNP will only get my vote if they support Cross River Rail.

[somebody]

This policy is so easily one-upped.  The question is: will Labor do so?

[Jonas Jade]

Of course it is easily one-upped, but the important part now is, that the policy/concept has been breached in the mainstream public media.

I really think CRR will pretty much go ahead if IA gives it funding regardless of the party elected.... Newman's biding his time to say something until IA does, since the LNP city council already announced that they support CRR.

On the other hand, the FG line policy is a great step in the right direction   even if it is only "interpeak" frequency, there's still room for improvement. This is much better than the Cleveland furphy.  

I'd expect Labor to follow suit but say something silly like "it was always in our plans as part of SEQ2031". 

[petey3801]

$9 million per year to run increased frequency on the FG line is very expensive for a train service IMHO vs Bus which usually is around $3-6 million to BUZ. The costs on rail are just far too high, they must come down if we want to see frequency extended across the network.

On the other hand, I CANNOT BELIEVE THAT FINALLY WE SEE A FREQUENT TRAIN POLICY!

Well, for starters, trains would be using a fair amount more electricity than a bus doing the same route. Also, in that cost is the increased cost of maintenance on the trains, overhead and perway etc. that buses do not need to pay (the roads are already there and maintenance gets bundled into a different department).

[Stillwater]

Labor more likely to be negative, saying Campbell Newman is running scared after his recent slight drop in the pre-election polls for Ashgrove and is giving special treatment to Ashgrove electors; where's the money coming from?; it's a slap in the face for people on other lines, who will have to wait 2 years for their 15-minute service; and Labor was the first to introduce 15-min frequency Darra-Northgate; only Labor has a comprehensive 'world class', award winning transport plan for the whole of SEQ, Mr Newman is just making opportunistic transport announcements on the run.... blah.... blah

[Mr X]

Is this 15min frequency the same that would apply to a bus (i.e. 15mins 6am to 11pm or whatever it is, every day) or just 15mins between morning and evening peak with 1/2 hour on weekends/early morning/late at night?

He clearly says "daytime off peak train services". It's a start though.

[Arnz]

Is this 15min frequency the same that would apply to a bus (i.e. 15mins 6am to 11pm or whatever it is, every day) or just 15mins between morning and evening peak with 1/2 hour on weekends/early morning/late at night?

Looking at the wording in the media release, it seems the Ferny Grove 15 min proposal applies only on the weekdays inbetween the peaks until 7pm.  Unfortunately after 7pm and weekends are stuck on 30 mins.

[STB]

Is this 15min frequency the same that would apply to a bus (i.e. 15mins 6am to 11pm or whatever it is, every day) or just 15mins between morning and evening peak with 1/2 hour on weekends/early morning/late at night?

Looking at the wording in the media release, it seems the Ferny Grove 15 min proposal applies only on the weekdays inbetween the peaks until 7pm.  Unfortunately after 7pm and weekends are stuck on 30 mins.

It's still an improvement regardless.  30min services after dark does seem to be rather standard anyway, even in Perth, which everyone looks up to.

[somebody]

It's still an improvement regardless.  30min services after dark does seem to be rather standard anyway, even in Perth, which everyone looks up to.

Not in Sydney!  I think Melbourne has 20min on some lines but 40 min on others.

[#Metro]

There must be TUZ publicity when implemented, something still not done for Darra to Northgate ...

They MUST give a name to it to market it. Surprised LNP hasn't latched onto the term "Train Upgrade Zone". It would be a nice segway from Bus Upgrade Zone (BUZ). Much more media impact if a name is placed to the initiative.

Labor more likely to be negative, saying Campbell Newman is running scared after his recent slight drop in the pre-election polls for Ashgrove and is giving special treatment to Ashgrove electors; where's the money coming from?; it's a slap in the face for people on other lines, who will have to wait 2 years for their 15-minute service; and Labor was the first to introduce 15-min frequency Darra-Northgate; only Labor has a comprehensive 'world class', award winning transport plan for the whole of SEQ, Mr Newman is just making opportunistic transport announcements on the run.... blah.... blah

Labor has a plan... but that's all it is - a plan. And we KNOW it is impossible to fund even 50% of it's contents. Fantasy 2031 can't be funded without running to Infrastructure ATM Australia - pure fantasy, plain and simple.

At least this has a short timeline - up and running NOW rather than in the year three bazillion and one.

[#Metro]

I wonder if they promise the same thing for Ipswich? 15 minute trains all day to Ipswich. Bombshell.

[O_128]

I would use the BUZ name, Hardly anyone refers to it as the "bus upgrade zone" it just means frequent service.

[Mozz]

I wonder if they promise the same thing for Ipswich? 15 minute trains all day to Ipswich. Bombshell.

If the current governments plan to move thousands of public sector employees from the Brisbane CBD to Ipswich then something needs to change .... they have already started building the buildings needed so maybe, perhaps, something will change in terms of public transport ... maybe

[O_128]

I wonder if they promise the same thing for Ipswich? 15 minute trains all day to Ipswich. Bombshell.

Not until 2034 with the curet gov.

[#Metro]

This will allow buses that are not 350 or 359 or GCL (594) to be terminated at Enoggera Interchange; Feederisation will allow boosting of bus frequency in the North-West at next to no cost...

[STB]

It's still an improvement regardless.  30min services after dark does seem to be rather standard anyway, even in Perth, which everyone looks up to.

Not in Sydney!  I think Melbourne has 20min on some lines but 40 min on others.

From what I've seen for the Sydney timetables, generally it is every 30 minutes after 9pm.  Although there is a lot of variance as other lines overlay other lines, with part expresses thrown in the mix, ie: a generally confusing timetable for some part of it.

For Melbourne, it varies, see below (note I couldn't get every timetable as for some reason for a few the M-F timetable wouldn't show - also some lines have trains overlaid that only use part of the line which boosts frequency on the inner parts of the line).

Alamein Line
Every 30 minutes after 8pm (inbound)
Every 30 minutes after 8pm (outbound)

Belgrave Line
Every 30 minutes after 7:30pm (inbound)
Every 30 minutes after 9pm (outbound)

Craigieburn Line
Every 30 minutes after 7pm (inbound)
Every 30 minutes after 7:30pm (outbound)

Dandenong/Cranbourne Line
Every 20 minutes after 8pm (inbound)
Every 20 minutes (outbound)

Epping Line
Every 30 minutes after 7:30pm (inbound)
Every 30 minutes after 8:30pm (outbound)

Frankston Line
Every 20 minutes (inbound)
Every 20 minutes (outbound)

Glen Waverley Line
Every 30 minutes after 8:30pm (inbound)
Every 30 minutes after 7:30pm (outbound)

Hurstbridge Line
Every 60 minutes after 8pm (inbound)
Every 60 minutes after 8pm (outbound)

Lillydale Line
Every 20-30 minutes after 8pm (inbound)
Every 25-35 minutes after 8pm (outbound)

Pakenham Line
Every 20 minutes after 8pm (inbound)
Every 30 minutes after 11pm (outbound)

Sandringham Line
Every 20 minutes after 9pm (inbound)
Every 20 minutes after 9pm (outbound)

Upfield Line
Every 30 minutes after 7:30pm (inbound)
Every 30 minutes after 8pm (outbound)

[#Metro]

Why are we comparing to Melbourne, which has its own basket of issues.
Why not compare to Perth or Vancouver?

http://tripplanning.translink.ca/hiwire?.a=iScheduleLookupSearch&LineName=999&LineAbbr=999

Expo and Millennium lines
Late night    Every 8 min.    Every 8 min.    Every 4 min.

Canada Line
Late evening    Every 20 min.    Every 20 min.    Every 10 min.

[STB]

The Vancouver one isn't heavy rail though, it's light rail aka Skytrain, thus less capacity, meaning you need to have a high frequency to get the same level of capacity as heavy rail.

[#Metro]

Capacity isn't an issue in the off peak. Frequency is.

Alamein Line
Every 30 minutes after 8pm (inbound)
Every 30 minutes after 8pm (outbound)

Belgrave Line
Every 30 minutes after 7:30pm (inbound)
Every 30 minutes after 9pm (outbound)

Craigieburn Line
Every 30 minutes after 7pm (inbound)
Every 30 minutes after 7:30pm (outbound)

Dandenong/Cranbourne Line
Every 20 minutes after 8pm (inbound)
Every 20 minutes (outbound)

Epping Line
Every 30 minutes after 7:30pm (inbound)
Every 30 minutes after 8:30pm (outbound)

Frankston Line
Every 20 minutes (inbound)
Every 20 minutes (outbound)

Glen Waverley Line
Every 30 minutes after 8:30pm (inbound)
Every 30 minutes after 7:30pm (outbound)

Hurstbridge Line
Every 60 minutes after 8pm (inbound)
Every 60 minutes after 8pm (outbound)

Lillydale Line
Every 20-30 minutes after 8pm (inbound)
Every 25-35 minutes after 8pm (outbound)

Pakenham Line
Every 20 minutes after 8pm (inbound)
Every 30 minutes after 11pm (outbound)

Sandringham Line
Every 20 minutes after 9pm (inbound)
Every 20 minutes after 9pm (outbound)

Upfield Line
Every 30 minutes after 7:30pm (inbound)
Every 30 minutes after 8pm (outbound)

Reading through this list again confirms for me just how pathetic and horrible Australian railway systems are in general.
Places like Toronto and Vancouver are running services every 5 minutes on Sunday night.

[STB]

Capacity isn't an issue in the off peak. Frequency is.

So you are okay with trains carrying mostly air at night then?  The Vancouver example isn't comparable as it's using a different version of rail, every 8 minutes is equal to running a train every 15-20 minutes, although I'm amazed to see that the Canada line has services every 20 minutes, which is equal to running a train about every 30-40 minutes.

If you are going to boost the frequency, you have to make sure that the capacity of the vehicles used (in this case heavy rail trains) will be used at what it is designed for.

[Mr X]

We definitely don't need a train every 5mins at night 

[STB]

We definitely don't need a train every 5mins at night  

Agreed, asking for trains every 5 minutes (or even comparing it - to light rail no less which artificially needs a higher frequency to be equal to heavy rail), is overkill and smells of foaming.

[#Metro]

So you are okay with trains carrying mostly air at night then?  The Vancouver example isn't comparable as it's using a different version of rail, every 8 minutes is equal to running a train every 15-20 minutes, although I'm amazed to see that the Canada line has services every 20 minutes, which is equal to running a train about every 30-40 minutes.

If you are going to boost the frequency, you have to make sure that the capacity of the vehicles used (in this case heavy rail trains) will be used at what it is designed for.

Agreed, asking for trains every 5 minutes (or even comparing it - to light rail no less which artificially needs a higher frequency to be equal to heavy rail), is overkill and smells of foaming.

Nonsense, the busway outside my house already does this, no one complains that it is foam. We have had such crap service for so long that it's become normalised to our expectations. Sorry, doesn't need to be every 5 minutes, every 15 would be a start!!

If you are going to boost the frequency, you have to make sure that the capacity of the vehicles used (in this case heavy rail trains) will be used at what it is designed for.

Disagree. Since labour is the main cost determinant, it doesn't matter whether the vehicle has 10 seats, 100 seats or 1000 seats.

[Arnz]

You might as well get a bus, remove the wheels and put rail grinders on it if you want a bus every 5 minutes after 9pm.  

Or of course.. convert them to maglev busways   

[ozbob]

Ministerial Statement

Transport and Multicultural Affairs
The Honourable Annastacia Palaszczuk
12/02/2012

LNP's "new idea" is a blast from the past

The LNP has today announced a transport policy that is already in place with Campbell Newman attempting to claim it as his own.

Transport Minister Annastacia Palaszczuk said the LNP had lifted a plan to introduce regular 15-minute train services from the government's Integrated Regional Transport Plan for South East Queensland, which was released in August 2010 and is already being implemented.

"Eighteen months ago the Bligh Government announced this plan and today the LNP has committed to something that is already underway," she said.

"We've already introduced this service on trains from Darra and Northgate into the CBD.

"The only way it can be introduced on the Ferny Grove line is by duplicating the track and this is what our government is delivering with work already underway on the $100 million, 2.6 kilometre duplication.

"Campbell Newman is trying to con the hundreds of thousands of people who rely on public transport every day into believing he has a new plan but in reality he has nothing.

"What Queenslanders are seeing here is a pattern of behaviour with Mr Newman repackaging ideas already in the public arena and already underway and trying to brand them as his own.

"The only thing that seems to be working overtime is his photo copier.

"He has no new ideas for Queensland, he has no vision, he has nothing new to offer."