Redcliffe Peninsula Line [was MBRL (Petrie to Kippa Ring)]

[Gazza]

Interesting idea with the single station spur.  I'm afraid though.  I'd think that would only work out if there would otherwise be Petrie terminators, which you could just extend.  It's probably not happening as there is no reserved corridor for it.

Other issue is that shopping centre would generate patronage from both directions, and by its nature a spur would serve one of these directions awkwardly.

PS, can they think of a better station name then "Kinsellas Rd"? I think its always better to name stations after suburbs rather than streets/roads.

[ozbob]

From 612 ABC Brisbane Breakfast with Spencer Howson click here!

Work begins on the Petrie-Kippa Ring rail line

Work begins on the Petrie-Kippa Ring rail line

11 November 2010 , 9:29 AM by Spencer Howson

Work has begun on the new Petrie-Kippa Ring railway. I'll say that again. Work has begun on the new Petrie-Kippa Ring railway. Cr Alan Sutherland is Mayor of Moreton Bay Regional Council:

[paulg]

Moreton Bay Rail Link preliminary evaluation report, dated July 29.  Click here..

I'm surprised that this report found that light rail would be more expensive than dual-track heavy rail! I cannot imagine that to be true.

I quite liked the idea of a light rail spur for this alignment, since tram-train rollingstock could have continued from Kippa-Ring on Anzac Avenue to the Redcliffe foreshore. It would have made it a much more compelling option for businesses and tourists. The SA government is considering this sort of option for the Tonsley line as part of the Darlington Transport Study: http://www.infrastructure.sa.gov.au/darlington/darlington_transport_study

Given the amount of light rail infrastructure in Melbourne and Adelaide I am surprised that the local industry appears to be so uncompetitive (given the sky-high cost estimates in the above report and also for the Gold Coast Rapid Transit).

[colinw]

Continuation along Anzac Ave could be an Airtrain style viaduct in the middle of a remodelled road.  I don't expect to see any such extension in my life time, as a decent feeder bus including a Sandgate to Kippa-Ring route completing the loop will be more than adequate for now.

Just getting the line to Kippa-Ring built is a big enough coup for now. 

[Jonno]

Continuation along Anzac Ave could be an Airtrain style viaduct in the middle of a remodelled road.  I don't expect to see any such extension in my life time, as a decent feeder bus including a Sandgate to Kippa-Ring route completing the loop will be more than adequate for now.

Just getting the line to Kippa-Ring built is a big enough coup for now. 

Agree totally just design the Kippa-ring station with a future/potential extension in mind.  In other words don't do a Ferny Grove so that the station HAS to be knocked down to extend even if it is along long long way away.

[#Metro]

In other words don't do a Ferny Grove so that the station HAS to be knocked down to extend even if it is along long long way away.

I have a feeling that Busway/BRT will be used to extend from the Ferny Grove line terminus, if ever.

[somebody]

I think most people would feel that an hourly 399 service would be a good improvement on the current 2/day each direction.

[#Metro]

Had a few thoughts:

Is it possible to stage the opening of the MBRL?

So the first station to be completed on the line will open, followed by the next one and the next one etc etc.
BRT could be used to ferry passengers to the open rail stations.

2. TOD. Have there been any moves to get TODs happening around the proposed stations?

[ozbob]

2. TOD. Have there been any moves to get TODs happening around the proposed stations?

I think there is a cultural change under-way on this.  It has been highlighted through the Office of Sustainable Transport and at a high level in Government.  This is working its way around.  Also value capturing through other options as well.

[ozbob]

Is it possible to stage the opening of the MBRL?

I think 50% then 100% would be a good compromise between cost and economy of scale etc.  We are in effect seeing this right now a similar situation with Richlands <--> Springfield (although we need the stations at Ellen Grove and Springfield Lakes built greenfield )

[Arnz]

Had a few thoughts:

Is it possible to stage the opening of the MBRL?

So the first station to be completed on the line will open, followed by the next one and the next one etc etc.
BRT could be used to ferry passengers to the open rail stations.

My best bet is that the Moreton Bay line will be in two stages.   Stage 1 to Murrumba Downs (just before the Bruce Highway), and Stage 2 being Murrumba Downs to Kippa-Ring.  Problem with that one is that it could give any future government an excuse to cut the expansion to Murrumba Downs.  Although it could open options for the Deagon to Redcliffe via the Bridge alignment (Though going via Deagon is the quicker option, unfortunately that route is definitely for the trainspotter fantasy file).

[Golliwog]

I would be for putting it in in one hit. Yes you have to wait longer to use it, but its much more expensive and time consuming to do it in stages. IIRC staging the Richlands line added something like $100M? Could be wrong but I know it added a lot to the price.

[ozbob]

I too support one period of construction, but it may be possible to start operating on the first half whilst the second is completed, but in view of the large number of stations etc. just do the whole lot simultaneously ...  good economies.   I think the urgency will be there by then ...

[#Metro]

I would be for putting it in in one hit.

Really? That's a bit like saying Richlands should not open until all the stations all the way to Springfield are built and open all at once. The kind of staging I'm referring to is incremental staging; So the first station to open would be Kallangur, where a BRT bus system would run from Kippa Ring to Kallangur, and be progressively cut back as new stations along the line (Murrumba Downs, Mango Hill, Kinsellas Road, Rothwell ) open. Of course, when the last station opens, Kippa-Ring, the BRT service would just become a local feeder bus to the station.

The general idea is to have the stations open and operational as soon as fit to do so, rather than wait for all the stations to be done.

[somebody]

BRT means building something.  Just a frequent service which meets every train.

[#Metro]

BRT means

* High frequency bus
* Bus priority (bus lanes/T2/traffic light priority)
* Stops that are ~ 500 + m apart
* Branding

It does NOT necissarily mean that you need to build a SE Busway style busway. Busways are just one (very visible) form of BRT. There are different types of BRT.

[mufreight]

I would be for putting it in in one hit.

Really? That's a bit like saying Richlands should not open until all the stations all the way to Springfield are built and open all at once. The kind of staging I'm referring to is incremental staging; So the first station to open would be Kallangur, where a BRT bus system would run from Kippa Ring to Kallangur, and be progressively cut back as new stations along the line (Murrumba Downs, Mango Hill, Kinsellas Road, Rothwell ) open. Of course, when the last station opens, Kippa-Ring, the BRT service would just become a local feeder bus to the station.

The general idea is to have the stations open and operational as soon as fit to do so, rather than wait for all the stations to be done.

The earthworks and bridgeworks are at present almost complete to the future site of the Ellen Grove station, little work other than the construction of the actual station, and laying of track and overhead would be required to bring it into service which would then reduce the expected load on Richlands itself and such a staged extension of the line has been promoted by many other than just those on this site but we have a Minister who refuses to listen to sound practical advice so any change in policy that would see services extended on the Springfield line beyond Richlands in a staged manner is unlikely.

[somebody]

Even a bus lane seems unlikely as an interim measure.

[#Metro]

http://www.nearmap.com/?q=T2@-27.218147,153.069766&ll=-27.218058,153.069766&z=20&t=k&nmd=20100907

They do have T2 lanes, so the next thing would be making sure there was a good road connection to the rail station to the bus...

[somebody]

Well, I don't see it being extended due to the rail line.  Especially if such extension would only be temporary.

[Golliwog]

I would be for putting it in in one hit.

Really? That's a bit like saying Richlands should not open until all the stations all the way to Springfield are built and open all at once. The kind of staging I'm referring to is incremental staging; So the first station to open would be Kallangur, where a BRT bus system would run from Kippa Ring to Kallangur, and be progressively cut back as new stations along the line (Murrumba Downs, Mango Hill, Kinsellas Road, Rothwell ) open. Of course, when the last station opens, Kippa-Ring, the BRT service would just become a local feeder bus to the station.

The general idea is to have the stations open and operational as soon as fit to do so, rather than wait for all the stations to be done.

No, Richlands is a totally different story. It's built and all but ready to go now, so it should open before the others. They originally were going to do the Richlands line in one hit but couldn't afford it so truncated it to Richlands, now extending it to its original length, even without the two intermediate stations is costing $100M more (again, not 100% sure about this figure, but I know it was expensive)

With the construction of anything that involves duplication (each station is different, but many things at each will be the same) or long lengths of the same (eg: prepareing the ground for track laying) you waste time and money by having the equiment and people needed to operate it for each section, then returning the equipment and such while you wait to do the next section. While you would waste money if you rented 6 of the same pieces of equiment to do all 6 stations at once, it would be much more cost effective to rent it, use it for whatever at the 1st station, then just keep going down the line, station by station. Same with the ttrack laying, preparing the ground takes time, but its best and most efficient to keep going rather than stop once you get to the station, which is the case with Richlands. Now they have to wait to lay tracks past Richlands until the ground is prepared. If they had kept going they would probably have the tracks to Springfield by now.

[#Metro]

I think the principle of what I am trying to say here might need to be clarified, which is this: stations should open on a "I am ready to open now" basis.

I am not saying do the project up to point X wait around a bit for whatever reason and then continue. I am saying, when the 1st station is ready to go, open it, run a bus to it while the others are being constructed. It seems unlikely that all the stations are going to be all ready to open and finish construction on the same day simultaneously, it is likely that as the line extends Kallangur will open first while the others will still be worked on. And while we are all waiting for rail, BRT to the station(s) would do no harm.

[Golliwog]

But the thing is, theres nothing really stopping multiple stations being worked on at the same time. From a construction side of things, there would be multiple times where one part of the construction team would be waiting for another to do somehting, or for concrete to be strong enough to build on top of, or many other things. Or theres the possibility of multiple build teams. Yes building a rail line does take time, and I get what you mean, that its unlikely that all stations are going to be ready at the same time, but I also think the main thing that will be stopping it being ready at the same time will not be the station construction itself, but the trackwork, and trackwork in particular there is no reason you would not keep laying the track so yes you would have the first stations ready sooner, but not by any great period of time (I would think no more than 6 months?)

And if you were to split it so the first stations were ready to be used then you would waste time as you would have to stop or slow track laying in order to electrify the line, not to mentioned issues when you're actually running passenger services on the inner part of the line whilst trying to get rail/sleeper/ballast trains through.

I'm not saying the idea is stupid, and I do get the point you're making, I just don't think the benefits from doing it will outweight the extra construction cost and time. Also, from a timetabling point of view it would be a great hassle to time trains to terminate at Kallangur only to have to rework the timetable again in a month to terminate at Murrumba Downs and so on.

[ozbob]

Media release 14 November 2010

SEQ: Rail to Kippa-Ring, just the thing!

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport commuters wishes to acknowledge and highlight the involvement of local councils in making large public transport projects happen.

"A recent highlight is the news that initial consultation and survey works are to begin for the Moreton Bay Rail link (Petrie to Kippa-Ring railway). This is very welcome news for those in the many housing estates in suburbs north of Brisbane who have to battle traffic to get into Brisbane."

"What is also very noteworthy is the Moreton Bay Regional Council's contribution of $105 million towards making the rail line happen in addition to Federal Government ($742million) and State Government ($300 million plus land valued at $120 million) contributions."

"These council contributions towards public transport infrastructure are the kinds of investments that will have a lasting city-building and social return for many years to come in these areas. A statement from the Department of Transport and Main Road's website, again highlights the need (1):

'More than 375,000 people call the Moreton Bay region home, making it the third largest local government area in Australia. It is also one of the fastest growing areas in the country with the population set to exceed 500,000 by 2031.'

"To get this into perspective, the population of Canberra is about 355 000 (2). The Moreton Bay Rail link will therefore allow people in the areas serviced to access employment, social, medical and educational opportunities and be part of the community while lessening the financially gouging combination of high costs of car ownership and increasing home interest rates and utility costs."

"RAIL Back on Track also believes that the private sector is a potential partner and financial contributor and asks that market interest in the land around the stations is actively tested for the co-development of transit-oriented development (TOD) and related commercial opportunities."

"It's well and truly time to get rail back on track!"

References:

1. Moreton Bay Rail link
http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/moretonbayrail

2. World Urban Areas
http://www.demographia.com/db-worldua.pdf

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org

[ozbob]

From the Brisbanetimes click here!

Petrie to Kippa Ring remains on track

Petrie to Kippa Ring remains on track
Tony Moore
December 3, 2010 - 7:11AM

A funding agreement for one of the mostly highly anticipated infrastructure projects in southeast Queensland will be formalised this morning.

Prime Minister Julia Gillard and Queensland Premier Anna Bligh will today sign a document ensuring the $1.15 billion Petrie to Kippa Ring rail line will proceed.

The rail link was first proposed in 1895 and has been an election issue in the seat of Petrie on numerous occasions in recent decades.

The federal government will commit $742 million to the proposal, with the Queensland government chipping in $300 million and Moreton Bay Regional Council contributing $105 million.

Survey work has already commenced and Moreton Bay Regional Council has already produced a master plan for the project.

The 12.5 kilometre rail link will include six new stations at Kallangur, Murrumba Downs, Mango Hill, Kinsellas Road, Rothwell, and Kippa-Ring.

Construction will start in 2012 and be finished by 2016.

The agreement was announced last night at Ms Gillard's first community cabinet in Queensland, which was held at Clontarf Beach State High School, in the marginal seat of Petrie, to Brisbane's north.

"I know there were a number of people who were very pessimistic about whether this would ever actually come to fruition," Petrie MP Yvette D'Ath told the audience.

Loud applause rang out when Ms D'Ath confirmed the intergovernmental agreement would be signed.

After the meeting, Ms D'Ath outlined some of the challenges of the project, which will run over the Bruce Highway.

"The infrastructure there is quite significant," she said. "There are a number of small bridges that need to be built and we are going along an environmental corridor - along the back of Hayes Inlet - so it is really important that we have minimal impact on the environment as we possibly can."

Ms D'Ath said the rail project was driven by population growth.

"We know that [suburbs] Griffin and Mango Hill particularly are the third fastest-growing areas in southeast Queensland."

In June, the Bligh government announced it would bring forward the rail line to Springfield to 2013.

Prime Minister Julia Gillard last night fielded questions ranging from the need for improved health facilities and marine parks, to immigration, population planning and traffic congestion.

She talked in a calm and assured manner to a mother who angrily claimed her son had been bullied in schools and in court.

An engineer grabbed the attention of the crowd when he said he lived near Deception Bay and yet could not receive internet of any description.

Communications Minister Stephen Conroy said two new satellites would provide a satellite internet service to the three per cent of Australians who could not now receive the internet.

"Most people think these people are right out in remote Australia," he said.

"That is not necessarily the case at all, they can be in places that are quite close to major metropolitan centres.

Ministers who attended the cabinet were:, Wayne Swan (Treasurer), Anthony Albanese (Infrastructure), Climate Change cabinet secretary Mark Dreyfus, Peter Garrett (Schools), Jenny Macklin (Housing and Community Services), Stephen Conroy (Broadband), Chris Evans (Tertiary Education), Chris Bowen (Immigration), Nicola Roxon (Health), Tony Burke (Population and Sustainability), Joe Ludwig (Agriculture) and Kate Lundy (Parliamentary Secretary to Prime Minister).

[colinw]

Pinch me, I'm dreaming.    Looks like the "point of no return" for this project.  I can't think of a single project that has been cancelled after reached this point of inter-government agreement.

I guess CAMCOS is now the new Kippa-Ring.

[ozbob]

Updated:


Brisbanetimes --> Moreton Bay Rail Link remains on track

[colinw]

Rails to Redcliffe.  Lock it in Eddie! 

[ozbob]

Media Release 3 December 2010

SEQ:  Moreton Bay Rail Link - Next station Kippa-Ring!

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport commuters has congratulated Queensland and Australia on the signing today by the Prime Minister and Premier of the financial agreement, signalling that the line from Petrie to Kippa-Ring is now to definitely proceed.

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"Rail is the way forward for the nation."

"Congratulations are in order, to the Australian and Queensland Governments, and to the Moreton Bay Mayor Allan Sutherland, and to all Queenslanders."

"Many community groups and citizens have pressed relentlessly for this outcome. Well done all!"

"On the 12th August 2006  I wrote with respect to the Petrie to Kippa-Ring railway: 'Often promised, can we do it?' (1)."

"Next station Kippa-Ring!"

References:

1. http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=7.msg7#msg7

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org

[ozbob]

 

[somebody]

The whole notion of building a new line to run no more than a train every half hour off peak is completely bizarre!  IMO.

[ozbob]

The whole notion of building a new line to run no more than a train every half hour off peak is completely bizarre!  IMO.

[somebody]

Your confused by me thinking that, or by me thinking that might happen?

[ozbob]

The whole notion of building a new line to run no more than a train every half hour off peak is completely bizarre!  IMO.

Brilliant comment!  

Reminds us all, we must press relentlessly for frequency ...

[colinw]

The whole notion of building a new line to run no more than a train every half hour off peak is completely bizarre!  IMO.

But ... it has already happened, several times.  

- Gold Coast.  Opened to half hourly & even hourly frequencies through the day.
- Richlands.  Will be half hourly. (Hopefully Springfield to Kippa-Ring won't be!)
- Airtrain.  Tried to run quarter hourly.  Gave up far too soon & the end result we all know.

Going back further.
- Doomben line.  Electrified for an hourly service.  Seriously!
- Rosewood.  Electrified for hourly, and two hourly on weekends.
- Cleveland.  Rebuilt beyond Lota for half hourly service, and hourly on weekends until 1993 or so.

A pattern is evident here, and means these projects are a huge wasted opportunity to provide better service.

[somebody]

The whole notion of building a new line to run no more than a train every half hour off peak is completely bizarre!  IMO.

But ... it has already happened, several times.  

I wouldn't really include the Gold Coast.  I think the half hourly base frequency is quite good as the line is quite long.  Problem is it dropping back to hourly at something like 8pm.

Sydney examples:
ECRL, 2tph of useful services, 2tph of Chatswood terminators.
Carlingford line: hourly.
ESR: Not.

The worst example is actually the ECRL.  That was built very expensively.  The electrifications are relatively cheap.

[mufreight]

The whole notion of building a new line to run no more than a train every half hour off peak is completely bizarre!  IMO.

Have to start somewhere, once the line (any line) is built and in service, frequencies can be increased over time up to the point where the infrastructure can no longer cope then the demand forces infrastructure amplification.
A little more difficult if there is NO infrastructure.
The critical points here are that the infrastructure be built to the best possible alignment and standards in the first instance without overcooking the project with un-needed overcomplicate Taj Mahal infrastructure that will never be needed other than to justify the praise of politicians for structures that will over time eat up funds for maintenence to achieve what could well have been a functional and practical structure constructed at considerably less cost.

[somebody]

Have to start somewhere,

Indeed, but I cannot be exciting by more tracks when the culture remains to provide the minimum service that can be gotten away with.  Still with the poor service on Sunday mornings and evenings, for example.

[#Metro]

I agree with the comments Somebody made. Perth can build train tracks AND run decent service on them, why can't Brisbane do that? Identical tracks, identical trains and I wouldn't be surprised if the labour costs were similar too.

[Gazza]

^They make do without train guards though, so labour costs would be maybe 60% of ours?