Terms of use Privacy About us Media Contact

Links

Author Topic: Melbourne visit August 2011  (Read 4460 times)

Offline ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 89843
    • RAIL Back On Track
Melbourne visit August 2011
« on: August 14, 2011, 08:49:50 AM »
Myki working fine.  Some random photographs, note unfenced ROW last two. Much of the Melbourne network is unfenced.



























Photographs R Dow 12th August 2011
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Bobs Blog  Instagram   Facebook  @ozbob13@mastodon.social

Offline ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 89843
    • RAIL Back On Track
Re: Melbourne visit August 2011
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2011, 09:03:50 AM »
Saturday went for V/Line trip to Drouin.  V/Line is a great service, something that should be strived for in Queensland.















Photographs R Dow 13th August 2011
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Bobs Blog  Instagram   Facebook  @ozbob13@mastodon.social

Offline ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 89843
    • RAIL Back On Track
Re: Melbourne visit August 2011
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2011, 04:20:07 AM »
Heading out on the network today, tram bus and rail.  Family committments yesterday but managed a few journeys on the myki, fares on Sundays are very very reasonable ....

One stage boarded the 2.46pm Pakenham service from Carnegie, it was like a peak hour train!  I have never seen such a heavily loaded train on a Sunday (except for football), it was too early for any football effect.  Locals tell me that Sunday trains are generally very well supported and I believe them.  This is a good example of a positive fare initiative driving maximum utilisation of the fixed asset and in so doing assisting in the broader economic savings.  Frequency is 20 minutes during the day and early evening on Sundays, they might need to ramp it to 15 minutes (same frequency Saturdays/Sundays).

In SEQ we a struggling to move past 30 minute or worse frequency on most lines ...

Adult fare Sat Sun Public Holidays is $3 capped all zones on myki ....  here!
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Bobs Blog  Instagram   Facebook  @ozbob13@mastodon.social

Offline ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 89843
    • RAIL Back On Track
Re: Melbourne visit August 2011
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2011, 05:04:20 AM »
Sent to all outlets:

Few quick observations from Melbourne

Greetings,

Spending a few days in Melbourne.  Train frequency is superb compared to SEQ.  V/Line interurban services are a good model for the way we need to move on our long haul lines such as Sunny Coast / Gold Coast.

The fare structure for the myki is simply world class. It encourages maximum public transport utilisation, it is a marked contrast to the go card fare structure.  I find the myki equipment is easier to use than the go card system as well.

Some photographs and quick observations here --> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=6544.0

Visiting these places outside SEQ reminds how much needs to done locally to improve PT.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration RAIL Back On Track
admin@backontrack.org
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Bobs Blog  Instagram   Facebook  @ozbob13@mastodon.social

somebody

  • Guest
Re: Melbourne visit August 2011
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2011, 06:53:01 AM »
You don't think it could have more to do with superior frequency than the fares?

Offline O_128

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2591
Re: Melbourne visit August 2011
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2011, 10:29:39 AM »
Those V/lines just keep getting more and more colours added
"Where else but Queensland?"

Offline Stillwater

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6389
Re: Melbourne visit August 2011
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2011, 10:43:40 AM »
Because trains beyond Beenleigh, Ipswich and Caboolture operate in a slightly different environment than normal suburban trains (single tracks, mix of freight and passenger, long-haul operation), maybe it is time for QR to take a leaf out of the Victorian V/Line book and establish a special division that would manage services to locations such as Rosewood and Nambour AND be charged with growing business further to places such as Gatton, Maryborough and Beaudesert.  This is what the Victorians have done for trains running to places such as Ballarat, Bendigo and beyond Geelong.  These towns have been revitalised because of fast and regular daily links to Melbourne, and to each other.

On the Sunshine Coast, for instance, Translink and the Sunshine Coast Regional Council are cooperating in the provision and funding of bus stops.  Similar co-operation, perhaps even involving the council contributing to station upgrades while also devising town planning management plans for the areas around each station, could be the way forward.  A small business hub, where individuals can work at a central regional location for their employers located elsewhere -- and effectively telecommuting -- could be located adjacent to a station.  Encouraging medium density housing at railway stations and shopping centres etc are the province of local councils, not the state government.  A TOD-style development at Palmwoods is totally different than TODs at Milton or Toowong.

State government agencies charged with developing such things will always contentrate on the bigger, more complex projects and will have absolutely no time for, say, a Palmwoods or Landsborough station precinct plan.  Town planning is where councils come into their own and would be more adept at station hub makeovers at, say, Palmwoods or Landsborough than cumbersome state departments.  By hogging the responsibility for these things, the state just pushes back any consideration of the 'small TODs' when the reality is that they should proceed in tandem with the Milton-type redevelopments.  And they will achieve quicker and cheaper outcomes.

Further afield, should Cairns and/or Townsville have light rail PT?  

However, we know that the state government does not want these things to go ahead, because it will put a bigger strain on single track lines (ie cost).  Or, in the case of extending passenger services to Gatton, cause conflict between passenger trains and the coalies.

Maybe a start on this conversation could be, in the lead-up to a state election, to call on the government to investigate such a proposal and to send a delegation of key QR officials to Victoria to study the V/Line model.  Such co-operation, whereby states used to send their staff to another state jurisdiction for six months and have them return to write an internal paper about adapting the person's home agency to incorporate the interstate best practices, seems to have gone by the board.

At the present time, we have someone whose in-tray is always full and who will always concentrate on the bigger-scale projects (by their nature, almost always in Brisbane), with the low-hanging fruit, consistent with the government's 'affordable housing' policy, lying permanently at the bottom of the tray.

In a decentralised state such as Queensland, the V/Line or 'Q/Line' concept would be entirely appropriate.

With a single agency responsible for suburban and inter-urban trains, staff will always concentrate -- and have every justification to do so -- on projects within suburban Brisbane.  Having a V/Line type division within QR, staff employed there would have specific responsibility for the 'beyond Ipswich', 'beyond Caboolture' etc train services/operations.

Another factor is at play here.  The state is constantly hammered from people outside SEQ for applying infrastructure funding in the SE corner only.  There are sound reasons why this is so -- it's where the population is concentrated.  In a political sense, and in circumstances where we have the emergence of the Mad Hatter Katter Party, promising a 'Q/Line' division within QR would at least show the non-Brisbanites that you have some thought for examining their PT needs.  It makes political and practical sense to announce a V/Line (Q/Line) initiative.

Offline ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 89843
    • RAIL Back On Track
Re: Melbourne visit August 2011
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2011, 11:33:58 AM »
Presently at the Corner of Bourke and William St Melbourne, watching the trams roll by.  Already on a capped myki fare ... lol

As luck (or non luck depending on one's perspective) would have it there was a major track failure between Newport and Williamstown this AM. Of course that is where I headed.  Overall the urgent bus substitution worked, but there was a lack of staff and clear directions at Newport and Williamstown North.  Like a good citizen I helped guide pax at North Williamstown to the area where the buses were (no staff or signs).  It does seem some things are common between SEQ and Melbourne ... lol

I then travelled out to Laverton and went for a journey on the Altona loop.  Change at Newport for the run  into Southern Cross.  If you recall there was a big local issue with the loss of direct services from the Altona loop.

Meeting with a PTUA rep for lunch, then might head out to Dandenong, then Smart bus back to Oakleigh.
:tr
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Bobs Blog  Instagram   Facebook  @ozbob13@mastodon.social

somebody

  • Guest
Re: Melbourne visit August 2011
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2011, 11:37:08 AM »
Because trains beyond Beenleigh, Ipswich and Caboolture operate in a slightly different environment than normal suburban trains (single tracks, mix of freight and passenger, long-haul operation), maybe it is time for QR to take a leaf out of the Victorian V/Line book and establish a special division that would manage services to locations such as Rosewood and Nambour AND be charged with growing business further to places such as Gatton, Maryborough and Beaudesert.  This is what the Victorians have done for trains running to places such as Ballarat, Bendigo and beyond Geelong.  These towns have been revitalised because of fast and regular daily links to Melbourne, and to each other.
I disagree with this.

V/Line is successful in spite of the lack of integration with the rest of the Melbourne network, not because of it.  Look at pre-RFR when you still had the same level of separation and V/Line carried far less passengers.  Which of V/Line's lines carries as many passengers as the Gold Coast line?  

It should always be remembered on the most recent data the Gold Coast line carries fewer pax than the Shorncliffe line.

If you recall there was a big local issue with the loss of direct services from the Altona loop.
It should be noted that this only applies off peak.  However, the interchange is far more inconvenient than what it needs to be.

Offline ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 89843
    • RAIL Back On Track
Re: Melbourne visit August 2011
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2011, 07:26:47 PM »
Some photographs from travels today.







Major track fault Newport - Williamstown.  Bus replacements





























Photographs R Dow 15th August 2011
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Bobs Blog  Instagram   Facebook  @ozbob13@mastodon.social

Offline ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 89843
    • RAIL Back On Track
Re: Melbourne visit August 2011
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2011, 07:48:51 PM »
V/Line is successful because they have relatively frequent services, comfortable fast trains, affordable.  Lines such as Geelong and Ballarat carry a lot of pax.

It was interesting today watching how they squeeze in  the V/Line services with all the subs on the Pakenham line.  Precision crosses, with plenty of crossovers and loops. 

As we were coming off the Altona loop onto the main line just before Newport a Velocity crossed our front at speed.  Newport is tight but they manage it.
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Bobs Blog  Instagram   Facebook  @ozbob13@mastodon.social

Offline Stillwater

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6389
Re: Melbourne visit August 2011
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2011, 09:38:41 PM »

Ozbob.  Did you spot any faded station signs in Melbourne?  One of the things I found amazing in Victoria is the heated waiting rooms at some of the smaller V/Line stations.

Offline ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 89843
    • RAIL Back On Track
Re: Melbourne visit August 2011
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2011, 02:45:59 AM »

Ozbob.  Did you spot any faded station signs in Melbourne?  One of the things I found amazing in Victoria is the heated waiting rooms at some of the smaller V/Line stations.

Haven't noticed any faded unreadable station signs as on the SEQ network.  All station signs are clear and easy to read.  Yes the waiting rooms are lovely.  Many of suburban stations have them as well. For example at Clayton, Noble Park.  As we know, it does get cold in Melbourne and was cold yesterday too.
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Bobs Blog  Instagram   Facebook  @ozbob13@mastodon.social

Offline SurfRail

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7911
Re: Melbourne visit August 2011
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2011, 11:02:27 AM »

Ozbob.  Did you spot any faded station signs in Melbourne?

I would hope not.  Their signage is idiot-proof - no lightboxes, so no laminate to fade, tubes to burn out, plastic to crack or be smashed open etc.  Also much more signage on each station platform.

Roma Street is a good contrast to most Melbourne stations - most platforms at Roma Street have about 3-4 station names signs in total.  In Melbourne, they are fixed to every light pole, so some stations have 10-20 per platform.

You will probably find Bob that everything about their signage is superior to ours - consistent formatting for all modes, a basic colour scheme for each mode, same formatting for metropolitan and regional services, better wayfinding signage etc.
Ride the G:

Offline ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 89843
    • RAIL Back On Track
Re: Melbourne visit August 2011
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2011, 11:17:06 AM »
Yes for sure Surfrail ..

Another thing I have noticed, just how fast the dwell times generally are.  Must be shades of a Hong Kong MTR imprint.  It is really noticeable, compared to our 'lunch breaks' at stations ...  Metro station staff have these paddles to hurry up and send off the trains at peak.  Pretty to watch a suburban rail system really pushing through frequency, safely and efficiently.

The train pulls up.  Doors open, pax in and out, doors close after it seems 20 seconds or so, tough luck if folks are trying to run up, and off!  Saw this happen this morning at South Yarra inbound, pax caught short, no problem, another train in 2 minutes or so...  Melbournites seem to know how to use public transport from a young age ..
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Bobs Blog  Instagram   Facebook  @ozbob13@mastodon.social

Offline O_128

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2591
Re: Melbourne visit August 2011
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2011, 03:55:30 PM »
Yes for sure Surfrail ..

Another thing I have noticed, just how fast the dwell times generally are.  Must be shades of a Hong Kong MTR imprint.  It is really noticeable, compared to our 'lunch breaks' at stations ...  Metro station staff have these paddles to hurry up and send off the trains at peak.  Pretty to watch a suburban rail system really pushing through frequency, safely and efficiently.

The train pulls up.  Doors open, pax in and out, doors close after it seems 20 seconds or so, tough luck if folks are trying to run up, and off!  Saw this happen this morning at South Yarra inbound, pax caught short, no problem, another train in 2 minutes or so...  Melbournites seem to know how to use public transport from a young age ..

QR really needs to start looking at how other places run there rail systems instead of using there "better judgment". Train stops, doors open. people get on and off" Beeping noise like the european trains and the doors close all in 20 seconds. It must take the new SMUs 20 seconds for there doors to close alone.
"Where else but Queensland?"

somebody

  • Guest
Re: Melbourne visit August 2011
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2011, 04:00:53 PM »
CityRail are no better than QR.

I think it is mostly a rolling stock design issue at least in part.  Getting something like 60 people through each door on CityRail at Town Hall with reasonably reliable double flow takes time, as does getting 40-50 people through each door with unreliably double flow on CityTrain at Central.

Offline O_128

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2591
Re: Melbourne visit August 2011
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2011, 04:04:56 PM »
CityRail are no better than QR.

I think it is mostly a rolling stock design issue at least in part.  Getting something like 60 people through each door on CityRail at Town Hall with reasonably reliable double flow takes time, as does getting 40-50 people through each door with unreliably double flow on CityTrain at Central.

But it doesn't take a minute at each station, You could easily cut 5 mins off the cleveland line and the same goes for all the others, Beenleigh and ipswich would most likely get 5min+ off
"Where else but Queensland?"

Offline Stillwater

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6389
Re: Melbourne visit August 2011
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2011, 05:11:05 PM »

Maybe it's time for RailBOT to put a very simple 'manifesto' of key points around frequency and fare structure to the major political parties in the lead-up to a state election.  Hopefully, the requests can be included in any transport policies that get released at election time.  Standing a PT candidate in the seat of Ashgrove might help focus the parties' attention also.

Offline ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 89843
    • RAIL Back On Track
Re: Melbourne visit August 2011
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2011, 08:05:12 AM »
Another thing noted in Melbourne was that many rail stations had bicycle lockers and bicycle racks on the platforms themselves.  I think this is an excellent idea as many stations do have the space and means bicycle facilities can be made more functional and in some cases provides a solution where for various reasons cannot be placed near the stations.

 :bi
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 08:14:46 AM by ozbob »
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Bobs Blog  Instagram   Facebook  @ozbob13@mastodon.social

Offline ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 89843
    • RAIL Back On Track
Re: Melbourne visit August 2011
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2011, 09:09:16 AM »
Sent to all outlets:

18th August 2011

A summary of a visit to Melbourne

Greetings,

I visited Melbourne last weekend.  During my visit I travelled widely on the public transport network in Melbourne and Victoria.

Some photographs here -->  http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=6544.0

Summary of some key lessons:

1.  Melbourne Airport Sky Bus, operates 24 hours a day, with very frequent services.  Airtrain take note.  Fares comparable.  Fares are not the key issue with the BNE Airtrain service, it is the poor hours of operation and lesser extent frequency.

2.  Myki - the equivalent of the go card, has a fare structure that drives maximum public transport utilisation in a fair, equitable, affordable and sensible way.

3.  The train frequency is such that one does need really need a timetable.  It is a joy to use the Metro Melbourne train network.  The key problem with public transport in SEQ is the general poor frequency of all modes, but particularly rail.

4.  The interurban/country  rail services V/Line are simply superb.  High standard of trains, combined with a good frequency and affordable fare levels.  I would recommend a trip to the country side by V/Line when visiting Victoria, a great system.  V/Line has experienced staggering patronage growth simply by improving the service frequency and reducing fares.  They also have dedicated long haul trains.  Big lesson for Queensland  here.  We need to move rapidly to introduce regular passenger rail services to more destinations.

5.  Dwell times on the Metro network are short and consistent.  A joy to observe a suburban rail network operating at a sustained high frequency safely and efficiently.  Melbourne folk are switched on to public transport as well.

6.  Many railway stations have bicycle racks and lockers on the railway station platforms.  This is something that could be a good idea in south-east Queensland.

7.  The Melbourne Smart Bus network operates cross-suburban bus routes and is booming.  The radial fixation in south-east Queensland needs to be broken, and a better integrated feeder network into rail and key bus stations implemented.

8.  The tram network is just wonderful.  You know, Brisbane is the only capital city in Australia that does not have, or is not actively planning light rail?   Brisbane will need to move into light rail to provide the capacity and sustainability for mass transit.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 09:17:49 AM by ozbob »
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Bobs Blog  Instagram   Facebook  @ozbob13@mastodon.social

somebody

  • Guest
Re: Melbourne visit August 2011
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2011, 09:34:59 AM »
8.  The tram network is just wonderful.  You know, Brisbane is the only capital city in Australia that does not have, or is not actively planning light rail?   Brisbane will need to move into light rail to provide the capacity and sustainability for mass transit.
To be fair, if Sydney didn't have some disused freight tracks it wouldn't have light rail either.  I think the tracks may have only remained because of some laws against ripping up tracks.

How advanced are the Perth plans?

Offline ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 89843
    • RAIL Back On Track
Re: Melbourne visit August 2011
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2011, 09:44:10 AM »
Sydney has had light rail for a while now.  Perth's transport future now incorporates light rail.
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Bobs Blog  Instagram   Facebook  @ozbob13@mastodon.social

somebody

  • Guest
Re: Melbourne visit August 2011
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2011, 09:47:58 AM »
Sydney has had light rail for a while now.  Perth's transport future now incorporates light rail.
Yes, I know that, just pointing out that it never would have happened without the disused tracks.

Offline ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 89843
    • RAIL Back On Track
Re: Melbourne visit August 2011
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2011, 07:07:28 PM »
A few more photographs at North Williamstown.  The ARHS Museum is located there, but appears to be closed.



H220 Heavy Harry







Metro workshop at North Williamstown



Photographs R Dow 15th August 2011


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/64/H220-Essendon.jpg/800px-H220-Essendon.jpg

H 220 leads the Albury Express out of Melbourne, past the signalbox at Essendon, circa 1949. Victorian Railways photograph

« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 07:17:43 PM by ozbob »
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Bobs Blog  Instagram   Facebook  @ozbob13@mastodon.social

 

Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 


“You can't understand a city without using its public transportation system.” -- Erol Ozan