Article: British man faces deportation over go card fare evasion

[ozbob]

From then Couriermail click here!

British man faces deportation over go card fare evasion conviction on Brisbane Citytrain
by Robyn Ironside From: The Courier-Mail August 13, 2011 12:00AM

IN THE old days, they sent convicts from Britain to Australia for petty offences such as stealing a cow or break and enter.
Now, we're set to send a hard-working engineer back to Britain over a $2.65 train fare.

Mark Littler, 30, faces deportation after being convicted for fare evasion when he claimed his faulty go card did not work on a trip from Morningside station to Fortitude Valley.

Mr Littler, who does not hold an Australian passport, could be returned to Britain if the Immigration Department reacts to the conviction.

This comes despite examples when more serious crimes have not attracted the same result.

In September 2009, Gold Coast sisters who bashed two tourists at Surfers Paradise received 18 months' probation and no conviction, while a series of crimes against animals, including dragging horses behind cars and killing family pets, have not attracted convictions.
Mr Littler fought the $200 fine for fare evasion because he believed he was acting in "good faith" when he reported his go card as faulty to a transit officer on board a train on December 12, 2009.

In May this year, Magistrate Brian Hine not only upheld the fine but recorded a conviction against Mr Littler, putting his hopes of gaining permanent residency in Australia in doubt.

His advice from Immigration was that a conviction for fare evasion would be regarded as a "minor fraud offence" and could affect his chances of remaining in Australia.

An Immigration spokesman said each application was considered on a "case-by-case" basis, but he conceded it was not helpful to have a criminal conviction.

In his ruling, Mr Hine said without proof, a conviction would "materially affect his application" but he saw no reason not to record one.

Mr Littler is now taking legal action in the Brisbane District Court against Transport and Main Roads in the hope of having the decision reversed.

In documents filed in court, Mr Littler said he brought his faulty go card to the attention of a transit officer at the earliest opportunity after boarding a train at the unstaffed Morningside station to travel to Fortitude Valley for his work Christmas party.

"She advised me that she would have to give me a warning," Mr Littler said.

"I was however in disagreement as my go card would not tag on. Therefore I was not evading the ($2) fare, I was acting in good faith."

But Magistrate Hine found that under the Transport Operations Act, Mr Littler had broken the law.

"I'm not satisfied that it is a reasonable excuse for a passenger to board a train knowing that they have not paid the fare, even if they are unable to use a faulty go card in their possession," ruled Mr Hine.

Queensland Law Society criminal law specialist Glen Cranny said under the Penalties and Sentencing Act, magistrates were supposed to take into account the impact of recording a conviction on a person's economic and social wellbeing.

"Often times though, these things are not properly explained to the magistrate," Mr Cranny said.

There are many more serious cases in which convictions have not been recorded. Two 17-year-olds escaped conviction in April for pelting a homeless woman with eggs and recording the act on their phone.

A month earlier, Andrew Christopher Cook, 33, and his 17-year-old son walked free after pleading guilty to dragging a pony behind a car.

No convictions were recorded.

Last year a gang who stole thousands of dollars from Brisbane parking meters had no convictions recorded, until prosecutors appealed.

And in September 2009, Gold Coast sisters who bashed two tourists at Surfers Paradise maintained a clean record when they were given 18 months' probation and no convictions.

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:
13th August 2011

Go card confidence lost

Greetings,

Re From the Couriermail click here!

British man faces deportation over go card fare evasion conviction on Brisbane Citytrain

British man faces deportation over go card fare evasion conviction on Brisbane Citytrain
by Robyn Ironside From: The Courier-Mail August 13, 2011 12:00AM

IN THE old days, they sent convicts from Britain to Australia for petty offences such as stealing a cow or break and enter.
Now, we're set to send a hard-working engineer back to Britain over a $2.65 train fare.

Mark Littler, 30, faces deportation after being convicted for fare evasion when he claimed his faulty go card did not work on a trip from Morningside station to Fortitude Valley.

Mr Littler, who does not hold an Australian passport, could be returned to Britain if the Immigration Department reacts to the conviction.

This comes despite examples when more serious crimes have not attracted the same result.

In September 2009, Gold Coast sisters who bashed two tourists at Surfers Paradise received 18 months' probation and no conviction, while a series of crimes against animals, including dragging horses behind cars and killing family pets, have not attracted convictions.

Mr Littler fought the $200 fine for fare evasion because he believed he was acting in "good faith" when he reported his go card as faulty to a transit officer on board a train on December 12, 2009.

In May this year, Magistrate Brian Hine not only upheld the fine but recorded a conviction against Mr Littler, putting his hopes of gaining permanent residency in Australia in doubt.

His advice from Immigration was that a conviction for fare evasion would be regarded as a "minor fraud offence" and could affect his chances of remaining in Australia.

An Immigration spokesman said each application was considered on a "case-by-case" basis, but he conceded it was not helpful to have a criminal conviction.

In his ruling, Mr Hine said without proof, a conviction would "materially affect his application" but he saw no reason not to record one.

Mr Littler is now taking legal action in the Brisbane District Court against Transport and Main Roads in the hope of having the decision reversed.

In documents filed in court, Mr Littler said he brought his faulty go card to the attention of a transit officer at the earliest opportunity after boarding a train at the unstaffed Morningside station to travel to Fortitude Valley for his work Christmas party.

"She advised me that she would have to give me a warning," Mr Littler said.

"I was however in disagreement as my go card would not tag on. Therefore I was not evading the ($2) fare, I was acting in good faith."

But Magistrate Hine found that under the Transport Operations Act, Mr Littler had broken the law.

"I'm not satisfied that it is a reasonable excuse for a passenger to board a train knowing that they have not paid the fare, even if they are unable to use a faulty go card in their possession," ruled Mr Hine.

Queensland Law Society criminal law specialist Glen Cranny said under the Penalties and Sentencing Act, magistrates were supposed to take into account the impact of recording a conviction on a person's economic and social wellbeing.

"Often times though, these things are not properly explained to the magistrate," Mr Cranny said.

There are many more serious cases in which convictions have not been recorded. Two 17-year-olds escaped conviction in April for pelting a homeless woman with eggs and recording the act on their phone.

A month earlier, Andrew Christopher Cook, 33, and his 17-year-old son walked free after pleading guilty to dragging a pony behind a car.

No convictions were recorded.

Last year a gang who stole thousands of dollars from Brisbane parking meters had no convictions recorded, until prosecutors appealed.

And in September 2009, Gold Coast sisters who bashed two tourists at Surfers Paradise maintained a clean record when they were given 18 months' probation and no convictions.

This is a most unfortunate story.  As we have been told, if because of a system issue and you a not able to touch on one can travel for thetrip for free.  The go card has an error rate if 1 in 29 uses. Does this now mean that public transport users are to live in fear of a conviction due to a faulty system?  Citizens have free trips on buses virtually every day because of go card equipment failures.

We call on the Minister for Transport to restore faith in a failed ticketing system

See http://translink.com.au/resources/tickets-and-fares/go-card/110201-user-guide.pdf  page 4

Sadly ...

Robert

Robert Dow

Administration
admin@backontrack.org

[Stillwater]

We have a situation where thousands of people have had their speeding fines and convictions quashed because of proven faults and wrong calibration of speeding cameras.  This is a similar situation surely -- one in 29 swipes of the go-card reader results in an error.  I wonder if the magistrate had that fact tendered in evidence?  Were the Morningside go-card readers checked that day?  Our system of law relies upon the principle of a 'reasonable person' coming to the conclusion of guilt 'beyond reasonable doubt'.  There is doubt all over this matter.

If you think the integrity of the go-card is the focus here, think again.  The integrity of the justice system is the real game.

[BrizCommuter]

http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2011/08/go-card-back-to-where-you-came-from.html

Absolutely disgraceful story. This could happen to any one of us, given how often commuters cannot swipe on.

[ozbob]

There may be a little bit more to this story than  what has been published.  I find it incomprehensible that a go card user would be fitted under circumstances as detailed.

I have spoken with TransLink this morning.  What ever the circumstances the published perception of someone being fined for a fault will cause some more anxiety for some users.  I have requested that the fact that a user unable to touch on due to a fault can travel for free be highlighted.  Additionally I have reminded them of our long standing request for written confirmation of the verbal policy when  readers have failed on a platform.  The situation is if the go card readers have failed on platform of departure (or concourse as appropriate) then a user can travel that trip not touched on (free).  TransLink again confirmed that is the policy.  There is not a requirement for pax to run from platform to platform searching for a working reader.

[mufreight]

The reader for platform 1 at Riverview was not functioning this morning.
There were two famlies headed for the Exhibition there, they then attempted to purchase paper tickets from the AVM but the AVM will not accept EFTPOS for paper tickets, having made the effort to tag on and then when the reader did not function to obtain tickets the group boarded the train with the intention of purchasing tickets on arrival at the Exhibition.
So four adults and five children with no valid tickets because of a failure of Translink equipment, throw in another overzealous transit officer and Translink has a potential windfall of $1800 in fines.
Perhaps this is why the card readers fail so frequently.    

[wbj]

It really needs to be clarified if it was a faulty go card or a faulty reader at Morningside station.  It would be an extremely unlikely coincidence that a go card has been discovered to be faulty for the first time on the same trip that the passenger is nabbed by a Transit Officer.

Ozbob, a verbal policy isn't worth the paper it isn't written on.

[O_128]

It really needs to be clarified if it was a faulty go card or a faulty reader at Morningside station.  It would be an extremely unlikely coincidence that a go card has been discovered to be faulty for the first time on the same trip that the passenger is nabbed by a Transit Officer.

Ozbob, a verbal policy isn't worth the paper it isn't written on.

But considering he travels to a gated station.

[Stillwater]

This case needs to be appealed in the courts.  If the conviction is overturned, just watch the lightning fast action from Translink to fix all the faulty go-car readers.

[YoYo]

It is an interesting case, but the core issue is that we don't know the full story.

Had he been travelling for a month on his "faulty" card?
Was the card actually faulty?
Was the reader faulty?

I don't like the judgement and how it was portrayed. It gives me a lot less confidence in the goCard system. But, without the transcript (or at least more information on the story), I can only write this (mostly) off as a Courier-Mail beat-up.

[Mr X]

They wouldn't convict someone of fraud for failing to tag on, though knowing QLD anything is possible.

[Otto]

As a driver, I have the occasional pax board with a faulty ( dead ) gocard.. I always advise them to call TL at the earliest opportunity to report the card and tell them this trip will be free..
My concern however is , how many times has this faulty card been used to gain free trips. There is no way to check this and no incentive for the pax to do the right thing and get it replaced.. I'm sure there are a few who will take advantage of the situation and continue using the faulty card to their advantage.
My stats in my sig show how many pax have boarded my bus this year with a faulty gocard.. I do approx an avg of 170 trips per month.

[Mr X]

I guess you couldn't put any sort of sticker on it with a date & signature to prevent future use of a dead card, it could be removed.. hmm

[Otto]

I guess you couldn't put any sort of sticker on it with a date & signature to prevent future use of a dead card, it could be removed.. hmm

We did do that with the old paper cards eg, 10 trip, weekly, monthly  pre TL.. I still have a book of stickers I've kept at work.

[O_128]

I don't care about the ticket but the fact this man might be deported and the new zealand man who has 9 kids, doesn't work and has a huge criminal and gang history can't be deported.

[Stillwater]

A person who is convicted of a crime in Australia and who does not have Australian citizenship faces deportation to their birth country upon completion of their sentence.  In the case above, the New Zealander gang member would also face deportation, if convicted; his wife and kids not necessarily.

[ozbob]

As a driver, I have the occasional pax board with a faulty ( dead ) gocard.. I always advise them to call TL at the earliest opportunity to report the card and tell them this trip will be free..
My concern however is , how many times has this faulty card been used to gain free trips. There is no way to check this and no incentive for the pax to do the right thing and get it replaced.. I'm sure there are a few who will take advantage of the situation and continue using the faulty card to their advantage.
My stats in my sig show how many pax have boarded my bus this year with a faulty gocard.. I do approx an avg of 170 trips per month.

I think there is a solution to this.  The number of failed go cards is not great, so it might be necessary to record the go card number of a card that fails, for forwarding to TransLink.  This could be a further incentive to replace the card, would give TO/SNO a resource that could be checked to see if a user is using a failed card repeatedly.  For rail, bit more difficult but at gated station same thing done.
 
The clearly needs to confidence by users that if they are not able to touch on for system/technical issues that they can travel free.  Having a regular travel history and credit on the go card establishes bona-fides.  Many people will not have secondary cash for paper, and why should they pay an inflated paper fare in any case, their money is on the go card?  I know of some pax who unable to touch on have abandoned their travel plans as they were terrified they would be charged  ... sad but true.

[ozbob]

Ozbob, a verbal policy isn't worth the paper it isn't written on.

Indeed which is why I have again requested a written clarification.  Have been requesting this for a number of years now.

A good thing about this story is that it might help getting the loose ends sorted ....

The travelling public needs to have confidence that if they are not unable to touch on and they have credit on their go card that they are not at risk of a charge for fare evasion.

[dwb]

As a driver, I have the occasional pax board with a faulty ( dead ) gocard.. I always advise them to call TL at the earliest opportunity to report the card and tell them this trip will be free..
My concern however is , how many times has this faulty card been used to gain free trips. There is no way to check this and no incentive for the pax to do the right thing and get it replaced.. I'm sure there are a few who will take advantage of the situation and continue using the faulty card to their advantage.
My stats in my sig show how many pax have boarded my bus this year with a faulty gocard.. I do approx an avg of 170 trips per month.

I understand your perspective Otto, and I think your approach is the right one... although technically if the bus is then boarded by a transit officer I think the least they'd be handing out would be a warning, possibly a fine.

I have had several faulty cards, one completely out of the blue where I'd been catching buses all week, then caught a train to my friend's place, and then had to get three buses return. The card failed on each bus and each driver looked at me suspiciously but let me on. The third bus was at Roma St so I went straight to the ticket office and asked them to replace my card, the woman tagged it and said it was working fine and wouldn't replace the card for me, I tried to argue with her but she wasn't at all helpful, I went to the AAVM and the card was working fine there too but not on the next bus. The card had just been sitting in my wallet, it hadn't been bent, punctured, heated, cut or anything, just mysteriously stopped working out of the blue. I had no cash on me and even if I had of, I would have resented having to buy an expensive paper ticket.

Many bus drivers do regular routes and shifts right? I see the same bus drivers over and over because I have a reasonably set routine, as most people do. You can't get away with the excuse "oh my card is faulty" with the same driver (or even passengers) on the same route time and time again.

[somebody]

I think a fine would be over the top.  A warning seems fine, and don't they have a system which records those who have been given a warning?

[ozbob]

I think a fine would be over the top.  A warning seems fine, and don't they have a system which records those who have been given a warning?

Yes warnings are recorded.  I think the solution for failed cards is as I have posted above, card numbers are passed to a central register.  That register can be checked on the fly by TO/SNO if and when with a user with a failed go card.  Warnings are for actual fare evasion, not for innocent go card users caught short with a failed card or system failure.

But again it highlights the broader issue of a lack of attention to detail on these matters. The public needs confidence that they will not be warned or fined if the system is faulty and that includes cards. Simple.  If the authorities are not willing to state and reassure the public that they will not be treated as potential criminals as a result of a failed system, then scrap the go card and go back to paper.

[somebody]

Go Go Go Card.

I don't ever want to go back to paper tickets.

[Fares_Fair]

Go Go Go Card.

I don't ever want to go back to paper tickets.

Hey, if the non-cap fits ...  
and remember plastic is not a renewable resource - but paper is.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[ozbob]

I think most people probably agree in broad principle Simon.  But it is now incumbent on the Government to explicitly clarify the conditions of use of the go card when a user's go card fails, system fails,  etc.  If they don't do that I can see some serious issues arising in all sorts of courts and instrumentalities.

[ozbob]

For example.  Something like this is needed ...

The go card system is dependent on technology but we recognise that sometimes it fails.  Go card users are assured that providing they are using their go card in good faith, they do not have to fear that they will be regarded as a fare evader and warned or fined should they not be able to touch on in the following circumstances:

1.  You have credit on your card go card or auto-top up is activated.

2.  On a bus or ferry if you are not able to touch on because of equipment failure the driver or crew will wave you on.  Do not touch off when you leave that bus or ferry.  You can travel for free.

3.  If go card readers have failed on your platform of departure at railway station (or concourse as appropriate) you can travel for your trip for free. Do not touch off at the completion of your trip.

4.  If your go card fails, the bus driver or crewperson will take the number of your go card. You are permitted to complete your journey for free but you need to take steps to obtain a new go card.  A central register of failed go card numbers is maintained and if you continue to use a failed go card you may be warned or fined.  If unable to touch on at railway station because of a go card failure complete your journey, but obtain a new go card.  If you pass through an attended fare gate the railway staff will take note of your go card number.

5.  It is not possible to list all the other miscellaneous causes of a go card touch failure, however providing you have credit on your go card and/or auto-topup activated and you are acting in good faith, you are permitted to complete your journey.

6.  If you are not able to use a go card because of a significant permanent physical or intellectual disability you may be entitled to a TransLink Access Pass.  See --> http://translink.com.au/tickets-and-fares/other-tickets/special-access-passes/translink-access-pass

[somebody]

Go Go Go Card.

I don't ever want to go back to paper tickets.

Hey, if the non-cap fits ...  
and remember plastic is not a renewable resource - but paper is.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

What's to be confused about there Fares_Fair?  Or was that the wrong emoticon?

I am sure I do far more trips/week than you (probably averaging around 18) and I don't really care about the lack of capping.

I don't know why so many people whinge about it.

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

17th August 2011

Re: SEQ: Urgent actions are needed to restore confidence in public transport ticketing system

Greetings,

Herewith a quick draft of conditions of use when a user is confronted with a go card failure.  It is not hard is it?   This is the sort of thing that is needed to be officially promulgated to help restore confidence in the go card.  Many users are scared witless that they will be next!

DRAFT Not Official:

The go card system is dependent on technology but we recognise that sometimes it fails.  Go card users are assured that providing they are using their go card in good faith, they do not have to fear that they will be regarded as a fare evader and warned or fined should they not be able to touch on in the following circumstances:

1.  You have credit on your card go card or auto-top up is activated.

2.  On a bus or ferry if you are not able to touch on because of equipment failure the driver or crew will wave you on.  Do not touch off when you leave that bus or ferry.  You can travel for free.

3.  If go card readers have failed on your platform of departure at railway station (or concourse as appropriate) you can travel for your trip for free. Do not touch off at the completion of your trip.

4.  If your go card fails, the bus driver or crewperson will take the number of your go card. You are permitted to complete your journey for free but you need to take steps to obtain a new go card.  A central register of failed go card numbers is maintained and if you continue to use a failed go card you may be warned or fined.  If unable to touch on at railway station because of a go card failure complete your journey, but obtain a new go card.  If you pass through an attended fare gate the railway staff will take note of your go card number.

5.  It is not possible to list all the other miscellaneous causes of a go card touch failure, however providing you have credit on your go card and/or auto-topup activated and you are acting in good faith, you are permitted to complete your journey.

6.  If you are not able to use a go card because of a significant permanent physical or intellectual disability you may be entitled to a TransLink Access Pass.  See --> http://translink.com.au/tickets-and-fares/other-tickets/special-access-passes/translink-access-pass

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

18th August 2011

Re: SEQ: Urgent actions are needed to restore confidence in public transport ticketing system

Greetings,

Will someone please act?  If you don't please resign and allow those who will to move forward.

Shambles is too kind a word to describe the mess created by mediocrity in the ticketing policy.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

Sent to all outlets:

17th August 2011

Re: SEQ: Urgent actions are needed to restore confidence in public transport ticketing system

Greetings,

Herewith a quick draft of conditions of use when a user is confronted with a go card failure.  It is not hard is it?   This is the sort of thing that is needed to be officially promulgated to help restore confidence in the go card.  Many users are scared witless that they will be next!

DRAFT Not Official:

The go card system is dependent on technology but we recognise that sometimes it fails.  Go card users are assured that providing they are using their go card in good faith, they do not have to fear that they will be regarded as a fare evader and warned or fined should they not be able to touch on in the following circumstances:

1.  You have credit on your card go card or auto-top up is activated.

2.  On a bus or ferry if you are not able to touch on because of equipment failure the driver or crew will wave you on.  Do not touch off when you leave that bus or ferry.  You can travel for free.

3.  If go card readers have failed on your platform of departure at railway station (or concourse as appropriate) you can travel for your trip for free. Do not touch off at the completion of your trip.

4.  If your go card fails, the bus driver or crewperson will take the number of your go card. You are permitted to complete your journey for free but you need to take steps to obtain a new go card.  A central register of failed go card numbers is maintained and if you continue to use a failed go card you may be warned or fined.  If unable to touch on at railway station because of a go card failure complete your journey, but obtain a new go card.  If you pass through an attended fare gate the railway staff will take note of your go card number.

5.  It is not possible to list all the other miscellaneous causes of a go card touch failure, however providing you have credit on your go card and/or auto-topup activated and you are acting in good faith, you are permitted to complete your journey.

6.  If you are not able to use a go card because of a significant permanent physical or intellectual disability you may be entitled to a TransLink Access Pass.  See --> http://translink.com.au/tickets-and-fares/other-tickets/special-access-passes/translink-access-pass

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[Golliwog]

For the record, the go card user guide part 1 FAQ (pg 21) reads as follows:

http://translink.com.au/resources/tickets-and-fares/go-card/110201-user-guide.pdf

What if I can't touch on or
touch off because the card
reader is not working?
If all card readers are not working at a station, on board
a bus or ferry and despite your attempts, you are unable
to touch on, you can travel for free to complete your
trip. You should not touch off at the end of your trip.

If questioned by an authorised staff member, you will
need to advise them of the time and station, or service,
where you were unable to touch on or touch off due to
the unavailability of any working go card equipment.

In the case where other card readers are available for
use, you must touch on from a working card reader
before travelling.

All bolding is from the document and not my own. No date in the document itself, however the URL suggests it was last updated on the 1st of Feb this year.

[ozbob]

I have assurances by TransLink and others that if the go card readers are not working on platform of departure (or concourse as appropriate) punters can travel for free.  That is why we have now requested written clarification (I first requested that over 18 months ago, I expected such an event to eventually arise). Do you think it is reasonable to chase from platform to platform to try to find a reader working?  Many people don't have that mobility, and it is unsafe.

There is nothing about a failed card either ... readers might well be working but card isn't? Punter has no money, it is all on the go card ...

The policy as written is mediocre and a legal minefield  IMHO.

[ozbob]

And what about the punter who because of a fogged up go card readers, inaudible beeps and glare unable to determine if he/she touched on?  They thought they did but halfway to town they discover when checked by a TO that they are not.  Warning or fine appropriate?  I think not, even if it takes a legal challenge.  Equipment not fit for purpose is easy to demonstrate.

[BrizCommuter]

And what about the punter who because of a fogged up go card readers, inaudible beeps and glare unable to determine if he/she touched on?  They thought they did but halfway to town they discover when checked by a TO that they are not.  Warning or fine appropriate?  I think not, even if it takes a legal challenge.  Equipment not fit for purpose is easy to demonstrate.

A few weeks ago BrizCommuter had a green light boarding a bus, but it did not register as a touch on. The touch off thus registered as the touch on. Where does a customer stand when something that shouldn't happen such as this occurs?

[ozbob]

And what about the punter who because of a fogged up go card readers, inaudible beeps and glare unable to determine if he/she touched on?  They thought they did but halfway to town they discover when checked by a TO that they are not.  Warning or fine appropriate?  I think not, even if it takes a legal challenge.  Equipment not fit for purpose is easy to demonstrate.

A few weeks ago BrizCommuter had a green light boarding a bus, but it did not register as a touch on. The touch off thus registered as the touch on. Where does a customer stand when something that shouldn't happen such as this occurs?

Exactly, a legal minefield ...  with around 1 in 50 touches presently resulting in a fixed fare, I don't think anyone could be fitted under those circumstances.  There would not be enough room in the holds of the ships to move them to Sydney Cove ...  

Even if discount for fare evasion and simple user error, there is a failure rate.  This in itself would be a defence under the circumstances you describe IMHO.

It is getting very messy.  

Another thing, I have received a number of feedback items concerning people who on their go card history have been somewhere else than they actually were.  This is a rare error but none the less raises the possiblity of a go card history being used as evidence as being possibly flawed?

[Golliwog]

And what about the punter who because of a fogged up go card readers, inaudible beeps and glare unable to determine if he/she touched on?  They thought they did but halfway to town they discover when checked by a TO that they are not.  Warning or fine appropriate?  I think not, even if it takes a legal challenge.  Equipment not fit for purpose is easy to demonstrate.

A few weeks ago BrizCommuter had a green light boarding a bus, but it did not register as a touch on. The touch off thus registered as the touch on. Where does a customer stand when something that shouldn't happen such as this occurs?

Did the original touch show up on your card history at all?

My experience is that they do tend to be fairly reasonable once they understand all the circumstances.

The biggest argument I've ever had was when I got incorrectly charged for touching on and off a few times at UQ Lakes. To start with they were adamant that as I had touched multiple times, thus incurring the extra fare, it was my fault and there would be no refund. I then changed tact and asked the blunt question "Can you touch on at the rear door of a bus?" Of course, the answer being no, I pointed out that it was the rear door of a bus where this occurred and that the only reason I had touched multiple times was because the reader was displaying gibberish (I had mentioned the gibberish part before but that apparently didn't count for anything)

[justanotheruser]

I think a fine would be over the top.  A warning seems fine, and don't they have a system which records those who have been given a warning?

although they generally operate under rules which specify ifthey give a warning or not. They are also only allowed one warning so if you have received a warning then you can not be given another warning.

[justanotheruser]

And what about the punter who because of a fogged up go card readers, inaudible beeps and glare unable to determine if he/she touched on?  They thought they did but halfway to town they discover when checked by a TO that they are not.  Warning or fine appropriate?  I think not, even if it takes a legal challenge.  Equipment not fit for purpose is easy to demonstrate.

if this ever happens to me on a train then I simply go to the ticket machine and check. Of course unlike most people I leave plenty of time to spare at the station rather than aim to arrive a few seconds before departure.

[ozbob]

if this ever happens to me on a train then I simply go to the ticket machine and check. Of course unlike most people I leave plenty of time to spare at the station rather than aim to arrive a few seconds before departure.

Sounds good in theory, but not all platforms have easily accessible AVVMs and it may be in use with a long queue, or out of order.  In Melbourne they have these additional readers where one can quickly check card history without needed to use or tie up an AVVM.  And when there are great numbers of pax not possible.  I think the solution is to actually fix the equipment so that is reliable and easy to use.

[ozbob]

And what about the punter who because of a fogged up go card readers, inaudible beeps and glare unable to determine if he/she touched on?  They thought they did but halfway to town they discover when checked by a TO that they are not.  Warning or fine appropriate?  I think not, even if it takes a legal challenge.  Equipment not fit for purpose is easy to demonstrate.

A few weeks ago BrizCommuter had a green light boarding a bus, but it did not register as a touch on. The touch off thus registered as the touch on. Where does a customer stand when something that shouldn't happen such as this occurs?

Did the original touch show up on your card history at all?

My experience is that they do tend to be fairly reasonable once they understand all the circumstances.

The biggest argument I've ever had was when I got incorrectly charged for touching on and off a few times at UQ Lakes. To start with they were adamant that as I had touched multiple times, thus incurring the extra fare, it was my fault and there would be no refund. I then changed tact and asked the blunt question "Can you touch on at the rear door of a bus?" Of course, the answer being no, I pointed out that it was the rear door of a bus where this occurred and that the only reason I had touched multiple times was because the reader was displaying gibberish (I had mentioned the gibberish part before but that apparently didn't count for anything)

I am glad you persisted Golli.  It is not a good situation.

[Fares_Fair]

PHOTO.

Go Card reader at Palmwoods station on Friday 18 August, 2011.

If the beeps do not work, or there is a freight train passing when one touches on (semi-regular occurrence at Palmwoods), how can one be sure of a correct touch ?
The light maybe there but when one is looking for the balance left it leaves uncertainty.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[ozbob]

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