QueenslandRail Driver Only Operation (DOO) - How to DOO it?

[somebody]

The ideal would be to include a fold out ramp on every train which is always in use.  IMO.  That way wheelchair disability would work with every door and every platform.  You couldn't use plug type doors, but I assume that there is a better reason than that why no one has designed such a system.

[#Metro]

Is it possible to have both DOO AND acceptable disability access?

[SurfRail]

what on earth do you mean key stations???  Are you saying ok at key stations we will make sure there are staff but stuff everyone else.  They can be inconvienced and made to wait? What I am talking about here is the current practice of disabled passengers catching trains in the opposite direction of where they want to go simply so they can get from one platform to another. However when they arrive at the station they are supposed to change at the train to their destination left 5 mins earlier forcing them to wait.

Central needs to manned.  Rocklea does not.

Caboolture needs to be manned.  Dakabin does not.

At less important stations, it should be feasible to have the driver assist passengers, because the likelihood of disabled passengers using them is much reduced compared to busier stations (for the simple reason less people use them, period), hence the potential for delays is minimal.

At manned stations where you have higher passenger throughput and therefore greater likelihood of disabled passengers, you have staff to assist to offset the timing issue.

I have travelled on a train from Frankston that conveyed a disabled passenger to Bonbeach with only the driver's assistance and with minimal fuss, so they should be able to design a safeworking system here that permits this without needing to put the train out of action for 2 minutes.

You call it making excuses but others here call it wanting to know how it will work. We want to get it as close to perfect as possible from the beginning not major stuff ups. What is unreasonable about asking for cost of upgrading basically every station on the network so the front of the platform will have a roof to protect people from the weather. What is wrong with asking what will we do with stations where the stairs or lifts are at the front of the platform prevents wheelchairs being there.

Nobody is suggesting DOO can be achieved tomorrow. 

I'm not out to attack anybody's intentions, and its important that these questions are asked, so concerns like those you have pointed out should most definitely be raised.

The problem is that nobody outside of this forum seems to even consider the possibility of DOO.  Certainly nobody from QR I have ever spoken to had even considered that guards might be better deployed elsewhere, as they are in other cities in Australia and overseas.

The infrastructure does need to be upgraded – but keep in mind that for the large part, it needs to be upgraded anyway.  Most stations have only got minimal shelter in place as it is, and have poor amenities.  Making stations DOO compliant is probably going to be considerably less expensive than the $200m of largely functionless tarting up that is being rolled out.

Any plans for platform raising, refurbishment etc should address the possibility of DOO by where possible ameliorating curves, improving sight-lines and shelter and other basic design elements.

Ignoring these questions is just like what cityrail did when asked  to put in lifts or similar. Cityrail just said no. It was only by people speaking out and taking them to court that forced cityrail to install lifts.

Exactly my sentiment.  Unless people demand that the system's resources are managed better, they won't be.

There is a good reason these questions are raised as to how are we going to deal with it. I haven't seen one person say they are against DOO. They just want to know how it will work and be implemented. Are we going to have to have another fare increase to cover the costs of this work?

As I've said elsewhere, I'm not a quantity surveyor or an engineer.  Those are the people you ask for answers to those questions – but you don't even get that far unless you agitate for something to happen.  The present culture in Queensland is such that it's too much of a bother to even assess the mere possibility, let alone looking at how it might be done.

[#Metro]

As I've said elsewhere, I'm not a quantity surveyor or an engineer.  Those are the people you ask for answers to those questions – but you don't even get that far unless you agitate for something to happen.  The present culture in Queensland is such that it's too much of a bother to even assess the mere possibility, let alone looking at how it might be done.

Yes. I daresay a few of us have a similar view. Maybe it is time MTR Hong Kong, Deutche Bahn or Singapore MRT knocked on the door of TransLink.

[Gazza]

What happens if there is a fault with that door beside the drivers door?

What happens when there is a fault with the door beside the guards door at present?

[somebody]

What happens if there is a fault with that door beside the drivers door?

What happens when there is a fault with the door beside the guards door at present?

That's a legitimate question because with the Melbourne system it would mean that the driver has to walk longer and a greater delay.  I think that's the answer.

[mufreight]

From talks with some in QR DOO has been considered but with the limitations of existing infrastructure is not a practical option, there has been a degree of frustration that when there are infrastructure upgrades and refurbishments that the beancounter syndrome coupled with financial constraints and political expediency have created the situation that the standards that would enable the future implementation of DOO are not implemented.

[Gazza]

^Even if we don't get full platform raising Mu, surely it wouldn't cost much to just to a 'short high' at each station, so the only time a ramp would need to be pulled out would be in case of a door failure.

As I've said elsewhere, I'm not a quantity surveyor or an engineer.  Those are the people you ask for answers to those questions

Exactly. Think about the next stage of railway technology...driverless systems. Now there is a lot that could go wrong there.
But when I ride a driverless train, am I sitting there thinking about all the possibilites? No!
If a driverless railways was proposed for an Australian city, would I be getting on RBoT/Writing to pollies etc asking "Oh, but what happens if XXX goes wrong, and what do they do when XXX fails?". And thinking of every possibility under the sun. No, I wouldn't.

Why, because it's the designers/operators job to consider these issues and make up backup plans, and they do.
My job is to ride the train.

The present culture in Queensland is such that it's too much of a bother to even assess the mere possibility, let alone looking at how it might be done.

Hmm, I thought you might enjoy this Surfrail, but it illustrates a good point.

With all the hooha around GC LRT, there was a local pollie opposed to the system. Someone from Skyscraper city wrote them an email: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=672554&highlight=foam&page=35

It was based on this article: http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2010/07/06/235521_gold-coast-news.html

Sent: Saturday, 10 July 2010 10:03
To: Division7
Subject: Light Rail O/H Powerlines
Good Morning,

I note you being quoted at www.goldcoast.com.au "Not only do they look horrible but they are also very dangerous" referring to overhead power systems of light rail/tramways.

What statistic are you basing the danger of these lines? The only possible way someone could be harmed by the wires is if they actively attempt to touch them.

It's also worth noting that modern light rail systems (Melbourne is not considered a good example of this) have very lean wiring systems, and are not a visual nuisance (like a Melbourne style system would be).

Regards,

And they got a reply:

From: Division7 [mailtoivision7@goldcoast.qld.gov.au]
Sent: Thursday, 15 July 2010 12:02 PM
To:
Subject: RE: Light Rail O/H Powerlines

"Dangerous" refers to people throwing things like sandshoes over them and causing a complete power black out of the light rail, or people climbing on top of vehicles and touching them. In an alcohol fuelled area like Surfers Paradise this could be a reality.
Regards


Susie Douglas

Cr Susie Douglas
Gold Coast City Council - Division 7
PO Box 5042
GCMC QLD 9729
Ph: (07) 5581-6760 Fax: (07) 5581-5293
Email: division7@goldcoast.qld.gov.au

Also in a similar vein was the stop light rail group, who made anti light rail claims such as "The overhead wires will interfere with ladders on fire trucks" and so forth.

Point is, when people "just don't like the idea" of something they'll make up every reason under the sun as to why "it won't work here", despite evidence from elsewhere proving the contrary.
They seem to think they have made a discovery akin to inventing the wheel when they "discover" supposed technical/practical limitations, without considering that people in the industry more knowledgable then they are have in fact solved the problem long ago.
I
think what Qld needs to do is stop listening to these naysayer people within, suck it up, look further, and just adopt best practice, then we'll start getting somewhere with PT (Excuse the pun)

[petey3801]

At the risk of incurring the wrath of some around, maybe we could adopt something like the Dutch system? Have Conductors who walk through the train checking tickets between stations as well as doing platform duties (the Conductor actually closes the doors in Holland with a Door Close button at each door). The systems for the guards to give right-away from each door is already in place on all trains used in SEQ, however they are out of use due to policies put in place. That would give the guards a more customer service focussed role while still having two crew members on board. It would also allow a very large reduction in the number of transit officers.

[#Metro]

maybe we could adopt something like the Dutch system? Have Conductors who walk through the train checking tickets between stations as well as doing platform duties (the Conductor actually closes the doors in Holland with a Door Close button at each door). The systems for the guards to give right-away from each door is already in place on all trains used in SEQ, however they are out of use due to policies put in place. That would give the guards a more customer service focussed role while still having two crew members on board. It would also allow a very large reduction in the number of transit officers.

The best customer service QueenslandRail can give is an actual TRAIN to turn up when I go to the platform!

FIX THE FREQUENCY!

I would gladly give up quiet carriages, muffins, and guards in exchange for 15 minute all day frequency

[#Metro]

Point is, when people "just don't like the idea" of something they'll make up every reason under the sun as to why "it won't work here", despite evidence from elsewhere proving the contrary.
They seem to think they have made a discovery akin to inventing the wheel when they "discover" supposed technical/practical limitations, without considering that people in the industry more knowledgable then they are have in fact solved the problem long ago.

There are genuine problems on the network. I recently made and observation at Park Rd station, platform one, about how high the gap is between the train and the platform. It is at least a good foot or so high. Not only that, the leading edge of the platform where the front of the train is, is also curved. So height and curves. How is a person in a wheelchair going to overcome that?

Maybe they should rebuild Pk Road when CRR goes in underneath it.

[HappyTrainGuy]

What happens if there is a fault with that door beside the drivers door?

What happens when there is a fault with the door beside the guards door at present?

They just use the next part of the train as car 3 and car 4 are both accessable. If there is a fault with the 3rd car they load into the 4th car and vice versa. When car 4 has too many wheelchair passengers car 3 can then be loaded. Its not uncommon to see a mobility scooter in one car then on the next set another one. And thats how all the rollingstock has been set up. Wheelchair areas beside the cabs.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Point is, when people "just don't like the idea" of something they'll make up every reason under the sun as to why "it won't work here", despite evidence from elsewhere proving the contrary.
They seem to think they have made a discovery akin to inventing the wheel when they "discover" supposed technical/practical limitations, without considering that people in the industry more knowledgable then they are have in fact solved the problem long ago.

There are genuine problems on the network. I recently made and observation at Park Rd station, platform one, about how high the gap is between the train and the platform. It is at least a good foot or so high. Not only that, the leading edge of the platform where the front of the train is, is also curved. So height and curves. How is a person in a wheelchair going to overcome that?

Maybe they should rebuild Pk Road when CRR goes in underneath it.

Bowen Hills has various problems regarding exits and elevators, Southbank has the same problem on platform 1, Boondal might have problems as it would back on to the overhead walkway enterance/exit, Deagon would stop at an exit, Clayfield would have all exits blocked (1 exit would be blocked depending on what way the train is running), Virginia would need major upgrades as there is no room at all as the elevator exits behind the stairs with the elevator entry/exit facing towards platform 2, Strathpine would have the exit at the level crossing blocked, Ascot has a pedestrian crossing bridge where the train stops, Doomben would be a difficult problem as it would back onto the exit and station building, Albion has multiple exits where the train stops, Nudgee would have the exit blocked on one of the platforms, numerous stations narrow as they get towards the end, I think there might be problems at Caboolture too as the train stops right beside the elevator on platform 3 are just a few of the problems.

[somebody]

Noticed last night the camel hump on FV #1 has a sizeable gap to the sill of the train door.  Would probably require a ramp without the wheelchair wheelie manoeuvre.

[SurfRail]

Noticed last night the camel hump on FV #1 has a sizeable gap to the sill of the train door.  Would probably require a ramp without the wheelchair wheelie manoeuvre.

Same at Petrie and Bethania.  I don't know why it's so difficult to get it right - Roma St and Grovely seem to be fine.

[BrizCommuter]

http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2011/05/do-we-really-still-need-guards-on.html
We don't, do we.

[somebody]

I must say, I do find the argument that we need guards because we don't have ATP to be almost beyond belief.  Guards did nothing to prevent the Waterfall and Glenbrook tragedies in NSW, even when in the former case they could have reasonably been expected to do so by applying the emergency brake in the case of an obvious overspeed.  There was also another one somewhere between Berowra & Hawkesbury River IIRC, which it was alleged that the guard should have placed detonators to warn following trains (or maybe we should precede them with a man waving a red flag!?).

With the Waterfall tragedy, no remediation regarding the guard's position was ever proposed.

[Arnz]

West of Ipswich and North of Caboolture has ATP, fyi.

[somebody]

West of Ipswich and North of Caboolture has ATP, fyi.

I would presume this is not effective when an EMU does a shuttle service. What is required for it to work?

[Arnz]

West of Ipswich and North of Caboolture has ATP, fyi.

I would presume this is not effective when an EMU does a shuttle service. What is required for it to work?

ICEs to my knowledge are the only units to have ATP fitted atm.  

I have seen "ATP" marked "squares" (boxes?) on the bottom near the driver/guard's doors on some of the older IMU100s , but I'm not sure if it's in use or even fitted.

[petey3801]

Only ICE are fitted with ATP.

[mufreight]

^Even if we don't get full platform raising Mu, surely it wouldn't cost much to just to a 'short high' at each station, so the only time a ramp would need to be pulled out would be in case of a door failure.

As I've said elsewhere, I'm not a quantity surveyor or an engineer.  Those are the people you ask for answers to those questions

Exactly. Think about the next stage of railway technology...driverless systems. Now there is a lot that could go wrong there.
But when I ride a driverless train, am I sitting there thinking about all the possibilites? No!
If a driverless railways was proposed for an Australian city, would I be getting on RBoT/Writing to pollies etc asking "Oh, but what happens if XXX goes wrong, and what do they do when XXX fails?". And thinking of every possibility under the sun. No, I wouldn't.

Why, because it's the designers/operators job to consider these issues and make up backup plans, and they do.
My job is to ride the train.

The key argument for the retention of drivers on trains, in particular on a system such as the QR commuter network is that when the inevitable happens and there is an equipment failure there is a back up avaliable that can in the majority of cases either rectify the problem (on board equipment failures) operate the train on verbal authorities to clear the section (signal failures)
QR has a culture problem in as much as train control no longer has the flexibility to implement alternative operating proceedures to maintain services, by the time the problem reaches the now designated authority seeking approval to instigate alternative operating proceedures hours have passed with unnecessary delay to commuters.

[justanotheruser]

I wonder why if our job is just to ride on the train then why are we suggesting DOO. Surely that is going beyond our job?  You can't have it both ways. If you dismiss questions raised because it is not our job then it also is not our job to make these suggestions.

[Gazza]

^Because the sheer level of nitty gritty detail is more to do with implementation rather than the actual idea.

It just feels like I'm banging my head against a wall trying to demonstrate that yes DOO does work everywhere and the sky doesn't fall in. I shouldn't have to keep explaining basic principles like pointing TV screens away from the sun as if its some alien concept that has never been done on any other railway.

So far, the only real barrier to implementation in the short term was raised by Bob: the lack of ATP.

But everything else is 100% able to be worked around fairly easily.

[somebody]

Also, we are being asked to reduce the level of subsidy, and even if not we still would be paying through our taxes.  Therefore it is completely fair to propose it.

With the ATP, I'm pretty sure it also applies to the tilts.  What about other TravelTrain services?  I presume not freight.

[petey3801]

Also, we are being asked to reduce the level of subsidy, and even if not we still would be paying through our taxes.  Therefore it is completely fair to propose it.

With the ATP, I'm pretty sure it also applies to the tilts.  What about other TravelTrain services?  I presume not freight.

Sorry, I meant the ICE are the only CityTrain units fitted with ATP. All Tilts are fitted and most freight (that run on the North Coast regularly) are fitted too.

[ozbob]

It is time to re-visit DOO ....

Crewing issues would be easier to sort ... multiple train cancellations today (27th April 2014).

I think it is time that progressive moves were now implemented for DOO.  Need not be network wide but start small and work it up.

[ozbob]

Media release 27th April 2014

SEQ: Public transport needs urgent action

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers has said today's train cancellations on the network (1), particularly impacting on the Springfield Central line (our newest) is just another sign of widespread problems with public transport generally (1).

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"Public transport must be fast, direct and frequent. The public transport network in south-east Queensland is far from that ideal. Public transport must also be affordable."

"You don't need high priced consultancy services to know what to do. Here is the plan, free."

"Move ahead with the bus and rail competitive tendering. Move the suburban rail network to Driver Only Operation. Metro Melbourne can manage to run trains every 10 minutes on weekends with Driver Only Operation."

"Fix the bus network along the lines as proposed by TransLink in 2013. Competitive bus tendering might help push this along as well. With the recast network, eliminate duplication with rail, feed rail services properly with bus and provide more logical cross suburban connections. Ensure frequency and span of hours of operation is adequate, not mediocre as it is now."

"Sort the failed fare system (2). This could be done next week and would be a sign to the long suffering community that action to sort the mess is under way."

References:

1. http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=1862.msg141455#msg141455

2. http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=10629.0

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

Currently Perth, Adelaide, Melbourne run suburban rail as DOO.  Sydney and Brisbane two person train crew.

[ozbob]

Caulfield Victoria.  Photograph shows mirror and box used to hold a number of video screens that open and display views of the train to the driver.



Photograph R Dow 21st April 2014

[awotam]

"Metro Melbourne can manage to run trains every 10 minutes on weekends with Driver Only Operation."
Vancouver has 3 min frequency at peak times on some of their routes... with no train crews. Operated from central control room.

[ozbob]

We won't be getting driverless trains anytime soon in SEQ ... IMHO ... 

A new separate system could be driverless, but be a big move for Queensland .. lol   

Driverless metros --> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=10527.0

[#Metro]

Gold Coast, Springfield Line and Airport Line could all be DOO. Roll it out progressively. Use platform staff at busy stations to help things along.

[mufreight]

Making platforms fully DDA compliant when stations are upgraded would be logical step to enable DOO. At present on the Ipswich line Dinmore and Graceville are to get upgrades but the platforms are not being raised, a rather half baked approach again.

[#Metro]

Why are the platforms so low in the first place?

[ozbob]

ATP is a requirement before DOO. I'm not sure what the link between 5% pay rise, DOO and public safety is, but if DOO is introduced then it appears to trigger a pay rise at the depot concerned. That rise sticks, whether or not DOO is continued... so theoretically it would also appear that if there was an upset about it and DOO was removed, the higher rate of pay would still stay.

Having guards on the network is extraordinarily mind-blowingly expensive.  This may also explain why train frequency has lagged behind while bus has exploded and expanded across Brisbane. Indeed, BT/BCC LOVES to go around saying how much trains cost, and years back even produced graphs announcing "buses as the lead mode". If you look at some of the material BT has presented at conferences, it has graphs comparing BT bus vs QR with the message being 'buses are cheaper!' (of course I suspect the requirement to maintain the guideway plus train station staffing vs no requirement for buses has not been compared fairly).

2013 Traincrew agreement QIRC
http://www.qirc.qld.gov.au/resources/pdf/certified_agreements/cert_agreements/2013/ca71_2013.pdf

11.9 Are there any other reforms to be pursued during the life of the Agreement?
The parties accept the following reform will be pursued during the life of the Agreement:
• A review of uniforms (as detailed in Schedule 4);
• Commitments around the role of Guards.

53.6 Automatic Train Protection

Trains operating in DOO configuration shall be fitted with an Automatic Train Protection System.
Failure of ATP system - Prior to Departure from originating station; the service will not depart in DOO
configuration if the ATP system is not operational or functioning correctly. En-route: trains will continue for no
more than 90 minutes, or the next regional depot location if under the 90 minutes, at such time a competent 2nd
person will be provided prior to any further progression of the Train Service.
Competent Person - Providing visual observance from inside the driving cab on Driver Only Operated trains
during ATP failure after the train has travelled for the maximum allowed time of 90 minutes. These visual
observations made from within the operating cab are to be carried out by an employee competent in that
specific traction knowledge, route knowledge and corridor operational safe working knowledge and procedures.

The Cost of Guards - effectively doubles the cost (approx) of operating train services, inhibits
frequency.

Schedule 2:

SEQ Guard
Base Rate: $63,414.92
Full Flat Rate: $84,682.58

Driver Only Operation

When DOO is introduced into a depot, all traincrew employees in the depot will have their
full flat rate increased by 5% regardless of whether DOO is maintained in the depot.

[ozbob]

Guard costs

2013 Traincrew agreement QIRC
http://www.qirc.qld.gov.au/resources/pdf/certified_agreements/cert_agreements/2013/ca71_2013.pdf

Running air networks is extraordinarily costly, hence the massive fare increases. Buses need to feed trains so that the high fixed costs of rail are offset.

[ozbob]

Why are the platforms so low in the first place?

Mainly because of their age, were originally designed to work with carriages that had lower entry points eg. Evans Cars and so forth ...

The unforgivable sin is the idiots at TMR continued to allow low platforms to not be sorted when they could have been eg. Indooroopilly, Darra.  Fools ...

[ozbob]

Media release 28th April 2014



SEQ: Efficiencies required for QR Rail Network too!

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers highlights the opportunity to do more with the money given to bus and rail operators.

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"It is clear that in addition to more efficiencies from BCC buses by tackling 'legacy routing', reform on the rails is also required.

"Driver-only operation (DOO) and Automatic Train Protection (ATP) is where productivity can be improved dramatically. Queensland Rail, or a future operator, should be contracted to progressively trial and move towards driver only operation. As shown below, this second member of staff adds almost 100% in costs to train operation (Guard, $63 000 - $83 000 per year). Under a fixed budget, this contributes both to lower frequency and higher fares for all."

"Brisbane and Sydney are the last remaining Australian cities that operate trains with two staff. NSW Government is now upgrading Sydney's rail network with ATP; a likely precursor for driver-only operation. This would leave SEQ as the sole rail network in Australia still using two staff per train. Perth, WA, operates the same model of trains as QR does over a comparable suburban rail network using only one staff per train."

"Initially driver-only operation could be rolled out on the Springfield, Gold Coast, Airport and Kippa Ring (when open) lines. As more services are added to the QR rail network as the public demands more service and higher frequency guards could be converted to train drivers to meet this demand. This preserves their job security - a win for all parties concerned."

"Rail networks have large fixed costs that don't change much. It is therefore essential that as many passengers as possible are using the rail network to offset these costs. This is why the BCC bus network needs to support the rail network, not compete with it. Perth feeds buses to train stations so there is no reason why 'it won't work here'. Melbourne also does something similar with its 900 series SmartBus routes and Auckland (NZ) is reworking their buses to feed trains."

"We ask that any savings made within bus or rail networks are reinvested into improved services for passengers. This means high frequency bus services to Bulimba, Yeronga, Centenary Suburbs and Albany Creek, extended train frequency on the Shorncliffe and Springfield line and concessions for health care card holders."

"We are paying some of the world's highest fares; if we are charged premium fares then we expect premium service from both bus and train operators."

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

Reference:

1. 2013 Traincrew agreement QIRC
http://www.qirc.qld.gov.au/resources/pdf/certified_agreements/cert_agreements/2013/ca71_2013.pdf

[STB]

I know Queensland Rail has wanted to get rid of guards in the past, and at one point they very nearly did finalise something like that, although the Government of the day stepped in and stopped it from proceeding.

I think for most of the network it can be done quite safely, there will be some dodgy stations like Murrarie which is on a tight bend which honestly I think that station should be moved a little further west and the bend straightened out a bit, but that's another story.