Sorting out the busways

[somebody]

CRR is well advanced, I have little doubt that it will eventually be built.

I am totally unconvinced that a metro will be built in Brisbane.   CRR will bridge a nice gap, and then with trains pinging in all over at a metro like frequency, a metro is not needed.  There needs to be a fairly urgent and major fix for the Melbourne Street - CC bus mess.  Cars might have to go off Victoria bridge and just make it bus only.

I don't think there is a need to close the Victoria Bridge to cars.  However, Melbourne St under the train line may be a different story.

I posted a while ago that Hope St southbound for the 1 block between Fish Lane and Melbourne St may need to become bus only.  Removes a cycle from the lights.

Other issues are the William St/Cultural Centre connection which similarly adds a light cycle.

[#Metro]

I think the RACQ will go crazy... 

[Gazza]

Perhaps this could be a split topic...Sorting out the Busway.

One thing I don't get, but why didn't the busway tunnel sort of curve underneath South Bris station, and come out at a fiveways at the Grey St/Melbourne St intersection, that way it would've only been a single set of traffic lights to pass through.

I think the RACQ will go crazy..

See, I don't even see why the Vic bridge is even that important for cars anyway. If people in West End want to get to the CBD its not as if there is any shortage of other options in the area.

[#Metro]

Perhaps this could be a split topic...Sorting out the Busway.

You can have the honours on starting that thread. 

One thing I don't get, but why didn't the busway tunnel sort of curve underneath South Bris station, and come out at a fiveways at the Grey St/Melbourne St intersection, that way it would've only been a single set of traffic lights to pass through.

South Brisbane Station is heritage and you have QPAC in the way. These are two guesses of mine for reasons. Other reason is that the busway must be built to accommodate light rail in the future. So it has to be built with LRT gradients, curves, widths, heights and other standards.

[somebody]

Topic split off.

[Gazza]

South Brisbane Station is heritage and you have QPAC in the way. These are two guesses of mine for reasons. Other reason is that the busway must be built to accommodate light rail in the future. So it has to be built with LRT gradients, curves, widths, heights and other standards.

-QPAC would not be in the way
-The heritage building of South Brisbane Station would not be impacted.
-The curve would be less severe than the current tunnel exit.

A picture paints a thousand words:

http://img46.imageshack.us/i/culturalcenter.jpg/

[Golliwog]

One of the main things I see as being fundamentally different now, is that the William Jolly bridge is no longer the only bridge heading in that direction.

My current idea is to cut car access across the busway to get to the WJ bridge, effectively making that intersection a T junction for cars, and putting the road heading under the train line into an underpass under the busway to make it grade seperated. As part of that I would also include a path for pedestrians to get past the busway, as well as a bus lane on the RHS of the under pass for buses such as the 199 and CityGlider that also want to go straight through. Without the bottleneck there, I think a Give Way sign for routes coming from the 199 side of things heading to the CBD would be sufficient as there would be less clumping of buses through here, the same going for out of service buses turning right just after finishing a run at the Cultural center.

[somebody]

Gazza, what are you doing with the cars through that intersection?

Are you suggesting a tunnel on that alignment?  I doubt such a tunnel would be constructable.

[#Metro]

What is the purpose of this tunnel. It would be costly and for what benefit? It is not going to increase the capacity of Cultural Centre Busway station which is close to or at capacity.

[Golliwog]

No, but Gazza's solution would at least reduce it from two sets of traffic lights to one, which would have some benefit.

I would also go on to pose a theory that the CC isn't really already at capacity. One of the things I've noticed it that because of the traffic light sequencing you can sometimes end up with a whole bunch of buses turning up at once, causing a bit of back log which sticks around for a few minutes, then clears off and everything will be fine until something similar happens.

[#Metro]

I would define 'at capacity' as a situation where service degrades to unacceptable levels if extra services are put on.

I think this is becoming the case at Cultural Centre. It is Class B ROW and therefore it has lower capacity than the rest of the busway. The fact P88 had to be introduced with the stated aim of 'taking pressure off other buses' and the 4XX series not serving Cultural Centre are clues that it is in fact, at or very close to maximum capacity.

How much would this tunnel cost? Seems like a lot of work for a small benefit to miss 1 set of traffic lights. May as well drill it all the way to Queen St Bus station.

[Golliwog]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 4XX routes would be heading striaght through the set of lights under the railway line, not turning into the SE busway, correct? (Or the other direction, I don't catch buses from that direction so I forget what exactly they do). If thats the case then thats not the Cultural Center busway station itself reaching capacity, but unacceptable queuing that would occur at the lights if there are a large number of buses that are NOT coming/going through the Melbourne st portal. Its a minor distinction, but I feel an important one.

[#Metro]

I'm talking about the situation on the platform at CC. I consider CC busway to be part of the SE busway.

Whichever way you look at it, I don't think that is going to hold until 2031.

[Gazza]

Are you suggesting a tunnel on that alignment?  I doubt such a tunnel would be constructable.

Problem?
http://www.nearmap.com/?q=@-27.464699,153.015977&ll=-27.464699,153.015977&z=19&t=k&nmd=20100912

One of the things I've noticed it that because of the traffic light sequencing you can sometimes end up with a whole bunch of buses turning up at once, causing a bit of back log which sticks around for a few minutes, then clears off and everything will be fine until something similar happens.

Exactly

Bear with me, this is a tough one to solve, am experimenting with a few options...

[somebody]

Are you suggesting a tunnel on that alignment?  I doubt such a tunnel would be constructable.

Problem?

The main problem would be when the tunnel has to surface on the east side of Grey St.  There may be a solution, I'm not ruling it out.  But that would require more room to be used to allow straight through buses to have a different lane from the towards South Bank buses.  Also, doing it without unacceptable disruption during construction would be difficult.

With the 4xx buses, I believe the main reason for them not using the Cultural Centre during peak is congestion on William Jolly Bridge, which they used to use.

Death to the 222.

[Golliwog]

Gazza, would this work? If I can get some time this afternoon/this evening to draw it up in paint, and finally create my own image sharing account, I'll post a pic up here.

My current idea is to cut car access across the busway to get to the WJ bridge, effectively making that intersection a T junction for cars, and putting the road heading under the train line into an underpass under the busway to make it grade seperated. As part of that I would also include a path for pedestrians to get past the busway, as well as a bus lane on the RHS of the under pass for buses such as the 199 and CityGlider that also want to go straight through. Without the bottleneck there, I think a Give Way sign for routes coming from the 199 side of things heading to the CBD would be sufficient as there would be less clumping of buses through here, the same going for out of service buses turning right just after finishing a run at the Cultural center.

[somebody]

Gazza, would this work? If I can get some time this afternoon/this evening to draw it up in paint, and finally create my own image sharing account, I'll post a pic up here.

My current idea is to cut car access across the busway to get to the WJ bridge, effectively making that intersection a T junction for cars, and putting the road heading under the train line into an underpass under the busway to make it grade seperated. As part of that I would also include a path for pedestrians to get past the busway, as well as a bus lane on the RHS of the under pass for buses such as the 199 and CityGlider that also want to go straight through. Without the bottleneck there, I think a Give Way sign for routes coming from the 199 side of things heading to the CBD would be sufficient as there would be less clumping of buses through here, the same going for out of service buses turning right just after finishing a run at the Cultural center.

You mean to cut Grey St?  Still has issues with the portal.

[Golliwog]

As in the traffic lights at the portal? Or is there some other issue I'm missing?

My solution for those lights was to put Melbourne Street's car lanes under the buses, pretty much on the same horizontal alignment as they are currently, but to shift them slightly further south so that buses traveling along Melbourne Street (but not into the busway to head towards South Bank and Mater Hill) can also use it to go under those buses that are heading south on the busway.

[somebody]

As in the traffic lights at the portal? Or is there some other issue I'm missing?

My solution for those lights was to put Melbourne Street's car lanes under the buses, pretty much on the same horizontal alignment as they are currently, but to shift them slightly further south so that buses traveling along Melbourne Street (but not into the busway to head towards South Bank and Mater Hill) can also use it to go under those buses that are heading south on the busway.

Oh Ok.  I think something like this was originally proposed, but the bean counters stopped it.  Might have been an underground roundabout.

[Golliwog]

Underground roundabout. What the. That sounds a bit ridiculous, no wonder it was canned.

[aldonius]

How much would swapping the busway and car sides of Melbourne St/Victoria Bridge mess everything up apart from the craziness during construction? It seems to me like that would improve things, unless the turn then becomes too narrow at the entrance to the busway proper.

[colinw]

I can't see an easy fix for the mess around the Victoria Bridge & Cultural Centre, because there is no easy way to grade separate and get "Class A" right of way there.  Any solution is going to involve extensive tunneling or some big flyovers.

One "out there" idea I have had would be a "Cross River Busway".  Basically take a dive from near the Southbank busway station (or even before it), then cross under the railway & river and come up in the existing tunnels somewhere in the vicinity of QSBS or even KGSBS.  Put in an underground busway station somewhere around South Brisbane / cultural centre.  Flood proofing it might be interesting 'though.  Should be a very much shorter tunnel than CRR both because it starts closer to the river & CBD, and due to steeper grades.

[aldonius]

If you're gonna tunnel from Southbank you might as well just go ahead and implement full bus priority on the Captain Cook Bridge and environs.

[O_128]

I think closing adelaide street to cars would speed up everything and stop all the "almost" accidents I see everyday

[Golliwog]

I think closing adelaide street to cars would speed up everything and stop all the "almost" accidents I see everyday

Even just better enforcement of the local traffic only rule, or limiting that to delivery vehicles only.

[Otto]

South Brisbane Station is heritage and you have QPAC in the way. These are two guesses of mine for reasons. Other reason is that the busway must be built to accommodate light rail in the future. So it has to be built with LRT gradients, curves, widths, heights and other standards.

The Busway was never designed for LRT at the Melbourne st portal. There is a spur in the Vulture st tunnel that was placed to take LRT from the busway and surface onto Grey street to service Southbank.. If you look hard, you will see the spur in the tunnel hiding behind the wall panels..

[AnonymouslyBad]

I think closing adelaide street to cars would speed up everything and stop all the "almost" accidents I see everyday

Vehicle access would be required by many of the local businesses so I don't think this would be practical. However the current "local traffic only" rules could probably be better enforced - I see many cars on Adelaide St who I'm sure have no business being there.
Speaking of Adelaide St, it may be getting a little off-topic but IMO it should be made more "busway-like" in general. Fewer but longer stops to accommodate multiple buses, and consistent stopping patterns would make it a lot more user-friendly and, I suspect, more efficient too.

As far as Cultural Centre goes, the station itself seems to be at capacity, something which is actually being managed by the traffic lights either side. So while it'd be nice to have Class A right of way I have a feeling it would redistribute the congestion problem more than actually fix it. To get more buses through Cultural Centre you'd also need a large upgrade of the station itself, and this still wouldn't allow many more buses coming from Mater Hill / South Bank (as they're also at capacity) but it would help with other routes.

Just sounds like another reason we need bus priority on the Captain Cook Bridge The main spine routes (read: BUZes) should all service the Cultural Centre first and foremost, and then other key routes as space permits. Even in its current state some routes need to go.

[cartoonbirdhaus]

As far as Cultural Centre goes, the station itself seems to be at capacity, something which is actually being managed by the traffic lights either side.

Maybe so, but there is something very wrong with having the lights at the William St portal spit out two buses every minute-and-a-quarter. Perhaps non-BUZ routes like the 135, 170, 214/215/220 etc could use the Captain Cook Bridge, if there isn't a massive build-up at the left-turn lane at said lights in the outbound direction.

[somebody]

Maybe so, but there is something very wrong with having the lights at the William St portal spit out two buses every minute-and-a-quarter.

Definitely.  There are several reasons to have the rockets leave from QSBS in the PM peak, with many of the standard routes using Adelaide St.

The ex-Mayor also proposed making the "local access" on Adelaide St one way, and I think that is a good idea.  Ban cars westbound.  Not sure about taxis.

[Golliwog]

Maybe so, but there is something very wrong with having the lights at the William St portal spit out two buses every minute-and-a-quarter.

I think this may have changed. I've noticed times when sometimes as many as 4 or more buses have come through at once.

[Andrew]

I think the best way to fix up the Cultural Centre is to build two more platforms. 

I have a basic concept design.  Build a 4 lane bus only "Adelaide St Bridge" with connections from the QSBS entrance and the Ann St on ramp to adjacent the Victoria Bridge at Cultural Centre.  There the busway would split to the current platforms and the new ones.  From the new ones, nestled in between the existing and the Museum building, the busway would travel over the Grey/Melbourne Sts intersection via bridge and then dive underneath the northern part of South Brisbane Station, connecting up with the existing Busway.  This would eliminate Melbourne St Portal and double the capacity at cultural centre.  West End, Western and Terminating services would utilise the existing platforms while the South East Busway services travelling to Southbank and beyond would use the new ones.

http://maps.google.com.au/maps/ms?msid=212963498897268680059.0004a6ac6321e23144c82&msa=0

[Golliwog]

How steep is that going to end up? Whats going to happen to the existing pedestrian overpass?

[somebody]

Sounds expensive.  Perhaps I'm missing something, but what's the green bit for?

[Andrew]

How steep is that going to end up? Whats going to happen to the existing pedestrian overpass?

The exising pedestrian should be able to remain I think.  The platform end of the bridge wouldn't be too bad as it is already elevated.  Coming down next to South Brisbane Station might be more of a challenge but I think it can be done.  Ideally I'd like to go out there and measure up with a tape measure in a couple of places to make sure. I also see it solving the pedestrian vs traffic issue a bit too as you could have a walkway with the busway over the road intersection.

Sounds expensive.  Perhaps I'm missing something, but what's the green bit for?

It probably will cost a bit but I think the demand through there bus-wise could justify it. 

The green bit would be a bridge connection from the city side (next to the Victoria Bridge) to the new "Adelaide St Bridge" to allow direct access from QSBS.  Also there is the possibility for a direct connection to the Ann St on ramp which would allow buses from both QSBS and Adelaide St to directly access the on ramp bypassing George St.

[Golliwog]

So wait, are the new platforms going to be on the same level as the current platforms? If so I highly doubt you'd be able to get up and over Grey St comfortably. The Eastern Busway takes 100m to go from ground level to low enough to go under Laura and Lilly Streets (Edith St is about where its ground level again, but it continues to rise up to the Stones Corner Busway Station. At the Cultural Centre you have about 40-50m between the end of the existing platforms and the intersection.

[BrizCommuter]

Raise Grey St above the busway. Cut back Melbourne St back to Merivale Street. Victoria Bridge car traffic would only be able to access Grey St South. Hey presto, uninterrupted busway...

...until you get to other side of the Victoria Bridge. Oh dear.

[Jonno]

The CBD Master Plan has the busway tunneling under the current Cultural Centre an then over an Adelaide Street Bridge then tunneling under Adelaide Street. Expensive but a full solution that will allow us to reach the high trip % we need to.

[somebody]

Raise Grey St above the busway. Cut back Melbourne St back to Merivale Street. Victoria Bridge car traffic would only be able to access Grey St South. Hey presto, uninterrupted busway...

...until you get to other side of the Victoria Bridge. Oh dear.

Has some merit, although I can't see many people being happy about removing Grey St North and Melbourne St from having access to the Victoria Bridge.

[SurfRail]

I wonder - is it possible to do something much cheaper?

How about reconfiguring the Cultural Centre Tunnel (the side street under the Bridge) into 2 bus platforms perpendicular to the existing platforms, for use by all the terminating and originating services from the north and west?  Buses heading out of service could still end up at Peel and Hope Streets, plus use the kerb space down there just before and after where the platforms would be.

As far as I can see, it would require reconfiguration of the current intersection with Melbourne St to allow buses to turn right towards the city, and allowing buses onto the general traffic lanes, plus some tweaks to the traffic light cycles at the CBD end and the lane configuration of North Quay to allow services to access Adelaide St.

It's not up to busway spec, but as a terminating location only I think it would be doable - the 300/306 etc hardly run in Class A ROW anyway except over the bridge.

Surely a cheaper and easier fix than tunnelling anywhere.

[dwb]

I wonder - is it possible to do something much cheaper?

How about reconfiguring the Cultural Centre Tunnel (the side street under the Bridge) into 2 bus platforms perpendicular to the existing platforms, for use by all the terminating and originating services from the north and west?  Buses heading out of service could still end up at Peel and Hope Streets, plus use the kerb space down there just before and after where the platforms would be.

As far as I can see, it would require reconfiguration of the current intersection with Melbourne St to allow buses to turn right towards the city, and allowing buses onto the general traffic lanes, plus some tweaks to the traffic light cycles at the CBD end and the lane configuration of North Quay to allow services to access Adelaide St.

It's not up to busway spec, but as a terminating location only I think it would be doable - the 300/306 etc hardly run in Class A ROW anyway except over the bridge.

Surely a cheaper and easier fix than tunnelling anywhere.

Sorry how do you propose would buses access and exit this new bus station?