Ipswich - Rosewood Line draft 2011 timetable feedback thread

[ozbob]

Please add you comments, constructive or destructive ...   

[ozbob]

Lack of free potable water on platforms 1, 2, 3 Darra ... HAHAHA caught you, joking ...

With the frequency out of Darra you won't have time for a sip ...

[Cam]

Positive Feedback:

1) Express services only to/from Ipswich during the busiest part of the peak periods i.e. no all stations to/from Ipswich.

2) Express services are scheduled to take only 20 minutes between Darra & Central in both directions.

3) Good 6 minute frequency of Ipswich services inbound during the busiest half hour in the morning.

Negative Feedback:

1) There is a considerable drop in afternoon services to Redbank & Goodna. The number of Redbank services leaving Central between 4pm & 6pm drops from 15 to 10.

2) 4 minutes of fat has been added to peak & off peak services between Darra & Ipswich.  Travel time in off peak services between Central & Ipswich has increased from 54 minutes to 58 minutes. An extra minute has been added inbound between Wacol & Darra even though the track has been shortened & the speed limit has been increased between Darra station & the Centenary Highway.

3) Poor 12 minute frequency of Ipswich services outbound during the busiest half hour in the afternoon i.e. leaving Brisbane between 5pm & 5.30pm. I believe that the 5.04pm & 5.16pm ex Central will be overcrowded.

4) Absence of express services leaving Central between 3.30pm & 4.16pm. I don't think that it is fair that Translink charges a peak rate fare but provides an off peak service during this period.

5) Absence of express services to Ipswich off peak. The addition of services that start/terminate at Redbank in the future will allow for Ipswich services to run express around the clock, 7 days a week whilst maintaining the 15 minute frequency between Darra & Brisbane.

[TrainGreg]

Some Negatives
1) Lack of services to Ipswich in the morning peak. A lot of people work in Ipswich and many travel to schoo/uni  in Ipswich but it is only a 30 minute service. It will in fact be worse that the present one! Surely some of the empty runs to Ipswich could be converted to stoping trains for those who work/study in Ipswich.

2) Lack of bus services from Indooroopilly in the morning peak. Many staff and students bound for St Lucia currently de-train at Toowong from where a frequent bus service (412 402 ) runs to St Lucia. If they want to continue to change modes at Toowong then they face a longer journey and a change of train at Darra. Buses from Indooroopilly start at a nominal 07:12 during the semester and about 07:20 otherwise (these buses are rarely on time due to traffic at Indooroopilly Shopingtown and onward to Lambert Rd.)
A shuttle bus could run from Lambert Rd to UQ and return all the way down Clarence Rd (rather than Central Ave) in a loop to take passengers from trains arriving at Indooroopilly from the west. That would require Translink to try and coordinate trains and buses. I think on present evidence, that is a big ask for them. Thus a single loop bus beginning at 7am would help.It could probably do a 30min service  & thus supplement the 427, 428 and 432 who convey passengers from Moggill, Kenmore, Chappel Hill etc.

For me, as a person who works at UQ, I will still de-train at Indooroopilly as I have a bicycle in a locker there so I don't have to rely on buses (except when its wet).
That is my opinion of the current bus service - I can do it much quicker on a bike!

[#Metro]

Lack of services to Ipswich in the morning peak. A lot of people work in Ipswich and many travel to schoo/uni  in Ipswich but it is only a 30 minute service. It will in fact be worse that the present one! Surely some of the empty runs to Ipswich could be converted to stoping trains for those who work/study in Ipswich.

This is a good idea, although it might make some services slower then... Should we have counter-peak expresses?
Why not? Ipswich is a city. Its surprising that there isn't a 2-way commute.

[ozbob]

All the spin about decentralisation and Ipswich becoming a major business centre is not supported by action, is it?

Another nail ...

[somebody]

Should we have counter-peak expresses?

Yes.  Trains run out of service because it is faster, but then they insist that all trains which do run in service must stop all stations?  It isn't logical.

TrainGreg, I don't know what you mean about the service being worse in the new timetable compared to the old one.  At least it will be clock face 30 minutes.  The old one had a worse frequency than 30 minutes from 7:18am to 10:05am.  Only trains which were closer together than 30 minutes were the 7:11am & 7:18am.

While they could ramp up bus service UQ-Indro, it makes much more sense to add a stop at Toowong.  Toowong-UQ is about a 5 minute bus trip.  It's about 15 to Indro, OTOH if you don't get caught in traffic.

All the spin about decentralisation and Ipswich becoming a major business centre is not supported by action, is it?

Could be merely Arthur not talking to Martha.

[ozbob]

Could be merely Arthur not talking to Martha ..

You are too kind ... 

If that is the case it is another excellent example of why the QAG was so critical of transport planning in Queensland.

If it is not the case and a deliberate strategy to ignore their own spin, might be time for a change of Government ...

[ozbob]

Another intriguing aspect is that with the move of Queensland Rail out to Ipswich, they will be directly in line for the poor anti-peak frequency.  Won't be able to add a special gate like Central now will they?  Might have to add a service or two ...

[ozbob]

...  Lack of bus services from Indooroopilly in the morning peak. Many staff and students bound for St Lucia currently de-train at Toowong from where a frequent bus service (412 402 ) runs to St Lucia. If they want to continue to change modes at Toowong then they face a longer journey and a change of train at Darra. Buses from Indooroopilly start at a nominal 07:12 during the semester and about 07:20 otherwise (these buses are rarely on time due to traffic at Indooroopilly Shopingtown and onward to Lambert Rd.)
A shuttle bus could run from Lambert Rd to UQ and return all the way down Clarence Rd (rather than Central Ave) in a loop to take passengers from trains arriving at Indooroopilly from the west. That would require Translink to try and coordinate trains and buses. I think on present evidence, that is a big ask for them. Thus a single loop bus beginning at 7am would help.It could probably do a 30min service  & thus supplement the 427, 428 and 432 who convey passengers from Moggill, Kenmore, Chappel Hill etc. ...

Thanks for your comments.  Very important considerations, apparently not appreciated by some.

[#Metro]

I'm going to introduce a very crazy idea into the discussion. It will probably reduce capacity I think, but please consider.

If you want to get a train full at peak hour, the train/PT needs to offer a faster overall travel time, or at least be competitive with the comparative car trip at the same time.

What this suggests is that (some) trains during peak hour could run from Ipswich to Roma Street, stopping only at Indooroopilly and Toowong and then express to Roma Street. That's right- NO STOPS between Ipswich and Indooroopilly. We could have confidence that, over time, such a service would be hugely popular and be full departing Ipswich. After all, bullet buses and rocket buses get full in the peak hour, why not also a bullet express train then???

"Induced demand" should work regardless of whether it is road or rail. People will choose whichever one is faster. Roads are faster when they are traffic free, but during peak hour, speeds on them deteriorate, which the Public Transport option attractive.

This also suggests (counter-intuitively) that all day high frequency and all day express/longer stop spacing is critical to lowering the cost/passenger and having all day patronage. In the off peak, car becomes much more competitive because you just jump in it and go, which leaves off peak rail patronage high and dry. With rail you wait 30 minutes. So putting more services on will cut the waiting time, inducing demand. Speeding up the service during the off peak should also have the same effect IF it is competitive with the corresponding road option.

We have some evidence that this is the case, at least for radial only trips to the CBD,  (high frequency) BUZ and also (speed) the rocket/bullet buses (the old 407, SE busway express services such as 133, 142 etc), the Gold Coast Train and the all day express (almost all BUZ routes and also CityGlider).

[ozbob]

The problem is the headways, and the lack of service frequency to the other stations, and the main loading stations are not in the action.  In time as track capacity and signalling improved we will see long haul express runs.  Also the western line is complicated by very heavy coal and freight traffic.

Apart from the Toowong situation, for the track capacity at this time I am quite comfortable with what is proposed. Best outcome for all.  

[#Metro]

The problem is the headways, and the lack of service frequency to the other stations, and the main loading stations are not in the action.  In time as track capacity and signalling improved we will see long haul express runs.

Apart from the Toowong situation, for the track capacity at this time I am quite comfortable with what is proposed. Best outcome for all.

Agreed, just floating the idea. The long haul all day express routes UrbanLink and ExpressLink will be very popular when they come online IMHO. We might have to get 9 car services for the Ipswich/Caboolture line for that in the future, or very frequent trains.

[somebody]

Also, Ipswich doesn't dominate the pax loadings by any stretch.  There is no particular reason to miss any station between Redbank & Rosewood.

[#Metro]

Also, Ipswich doesn't dominate the pax loadings by any stretch.  There is no particular reason to miss any station between Redbank & Rosewood.

I agree with what Ozbob said. The idea isn't practical right now with the constraints, but is something to think about when considering UrbanLink/ExpressLink being phased in.

I think that actually looking at the platform patronage is probably the wrong approach. Because all that is telling you is how convenient those people find catching a service at that station under the current operating conditions and services (which relate to ease of access/density around and to station BUT ALSO speed, capacity and frequency of the train service itself).

We are not interested in what is, but what could be. It would be a mistake to assume that because a station is busy/not busy now, that is how it will always be, because it ignores the effect of a change in service would have. At best it is a guide or indicator, but only that.

This should be clear, again from the BUZ and Gold Coast express services. Patronage went through the roof when BUZ services came in, because it induced demand. If you put in a very good service, people will see that and catch that service, especially when compared to the road/freeway alternative.

Mandurah line shows some clues too. There are very few stations on the Mandurah line (our Ferny Grove line has more stations) but the service is very high speed, on average around 80-90km/hour AIUI. There is almost nothing at Mandurah itself, it is just a beach town, nothing the size of Ipswich.

There are 11 stations on the Mandurah line (including the terminus and Perth Underground) which gives an average station spacing of about 6km or so. The stations are in the middle of freeways, and hard to access to by foot. And yet, patronage on those trains are going through the roof, because it is very competitive with the car, despite having few stations and having what I would see as extremely poor access by foot or closeness to high density. Most of that Mandurah line is constructed in low density suburbia....

[somebody]

I am quite comfortable with what is proposed.

I'm reasonably comfortable with it also, for the Ipswich line, with the provisos I have already mentioned in other threads.

TT, I don't expect any real change in which stations get the most patronage once this timetable comes in.  I agree with your points, but I do not see several stations already present being shut down.

[#Metro]

TT, I don't expect any real change in which stations get the most patronage once this timetable comes in.  I agree with your points, but I do not see several stations already present being shut down.

It's not necessary to "shut them down". Once UrbanLink and ExpressLink come in all that will happen is that the train will just not stop there. Frequent local and Rapid long-haul.

The timetable won't change too much. Agreed. Too much change at once might shock people too much!

[TrainGreg]

Some futher points:
1) Ipswich starts at Goodna Station not Redbank (Gales is the last station in Brisbane City). Goodna has a very large patronage and it is difficult to find a car parking space after 07:30. We need to tell QR that.
2) The current Ipswich service in the morning peak does have extra trains when people are going to work there. The new timetable is inadequate. It seems to be the case that Translink is the tail wagging the QR dog. How are QR empolyees going to get to work on time with only a 30min service?

3) Buses from Toowong to UQ take longer than 5 minutes - I checked that yesterday. In addition, it's a longer walk from the station to the stop outbound.

4) Buses from Indooroopilly to UQ can take 10 minutes (or less) with the 427 or 432 and the bus stop is more accessible than that at Toowong. The added advantage is that you get off the train 5 minutes earlier. The reverse applies in the afternoon.
5) Unfortunately buses are unreliable and those to/from Indooroopilly are the worst. Some afternoons they just don't turn up! The 412/402 to Toowong are more reliable.

6) Is Translink capable of properly corordinating trains and buses even if it were possible to run buses on time?

7) what about running trains to Ipswich express to Darra  stopping at Toowong and Indooroopilly?

I think trains are slower now than they were in 1979-1980. Is that  due to more passengers or just easing of timetables so it is almost impossible to be late? What about timetables that state the EARLIST time of departure from a station. It might cut out extraordinary long  waits at Corinda on some trains.

[#Metro]

3) Buses from Toowong to UQ take longer than 5 minutes - I checked that yesterday. In addition, it's a longer walk from the station to the stop outbound.

4) Buses from Indooroopilly to UQ can take 10 minutes (or less) with the 427 or 432 and the bus stop is more accessible than that at Toowong. The added advantage is that you get off the train 5 minutes earlier. The reverse applies in the afternoon.
5) Unfortunately buses are unreliable and those to/from Indooroopilly are the worst. Some afternoons they just don't turn up! The 412/402 to Toowong are more reliable.

6) Is Translink capable of properly corordinating trains and buses even if it were possible to run buses on time?

I'm starting to think that in the mornings at least, rocket buses could work.
UQ-Toowong 403: Toowong-Schonell Drive (one stop at the shop cluster there near the ferry)-UQ Chancellors Pl. (3 stops total)
UQ-Indooroopilly 421:  Indooroopilly shops, Indro Station, Ironside School-Hawken Village-UQ Chancellors Pl. (5 stops total)

[somebody]

1) Ipswich starts at Goodna Station not Redbank (Gales is the last station in Brisbane City). Goodna has a very large patronage and it is difficult to find a car parking space after 07:30. We need to tell QR that.

That may be, but it doesn't make much sense to provide Goodna with an express service if Oxley is missing out.  I don't think the BCC/Ipswich boundary is significant.

3) Buses from Toowong to UQ take longer than 5 minutes - I checked that yesterday. In addition, it's a longer walk from the station to the stop outbound.

4) Buses from Indooroopilly to UQ can take 10 minutes (or less) with the 427 or 432 and the bus stop is more accessible than that at Toowong. The added advantage is that you get off the train 5 minutes earlier. The reverse applies in the afternoon.

Even so, it is less efficient having the bus do the longer part of the journey.  The bus stop at Toowong is pretty good heading outbound with the pedestrian overpass, but if you get a 412 heading inbound, you do have to cross High St.  At Indro, you do have to cross Clarence Rd in both directions and I wouldn't have said that the walk is more than 50m difference.

I think trains are slower now than they were in 1979-1980. Is that  due to more passengers or just easing of timetables so it is almost impossible to be late? What about timetables that state the EARLIST time of departure from a station. It might cut out extraordinary long  waits at Corinda on some trains.

Hear here!

It's not necessary to "shut them down". Once UrbanLink and ExpressLink come in all that will happen is that the train will just not stop there. Frequent local and Rapid long-haul.

So, you are saying skip-stop?  I don't think so.

With your 403/421, I don't see the need, although it is illogical to have the 412 running limited stops and the 402 all stops.

[david]

Mandurah line shows some clues too. There are very few stations on the Mandurah line (our Ferny Grove line has more stations) but the service is very high speed, on average around 80-90km/hour AIUI. There is almost nothing at Mandurah itself, it is just a beach town, nothing the size of Ipswich.

There are 11 stations on the Mandurah line (including the terminus and Perth Underground) which gives an average station spacing of about 6km or so. The stations are in the middle of freeways, and hard to access to by foot. And yet, patronage on those trains are going through the roof, because it is very competitive with the car, despite having few stations and having what I would see as extremely poor access by foot or closeness to high density. Most of that Mandurah line is constructed in low density suburbia....

Reminiscent of the not having Ellen Grove/Springfield Lakes on the Springfield line? I think that the transport planners have this sort of thinking in mind - larger spaced train stations to achieve a faster travel time. We cannot just put up these comparisons with Mandurah and on the other hand call for extra stations on the Springfield line.

Back on topic, there is a 3:58pm service to Ipswich, which is followed by a Richlands service 3 minutes laterat 4:01pm. What is the point of this? The Richlands service will just be carrying air. It would be better to space them out a bit more to reduce the 20 minute wait for an Ipswich service either side and the 12 minute wait for a service Milton to Darra. This problem also occurs after 6:00pm where the service pattern is 6 minute wait, 12 minute wait, 6 minute wait etc. I find this terribly strange and not a particularly good use of the investment in Corinda to Darra upgrade.

I'm also still slightly concerned about the frequency of services between 4:30 and 5:30pm, which is the core PM peak rush. I think we will see a lot of overloaded services.

[#Metro]

Reminiscent of the not having Ellen Grove/Springfield Lakes on the Springfield line? I think that the transport planners have this sort of thinking in mind - larger spaced train stations to achieve a faster travel time. We cannot just put up these comparisons with Mandurah and on the other hand call for extra stations on the Springfield line.

Maybe that IS the idea... It would explain a lot!

[ozbob]

There is every intention of building Ellen Grove and Springfield Lakes, nothing to do with Mandurah.  To not support the stations is an absolute idiocy of the highest order IMHO. Ranks with the failure to electrify the Up sub between Corinda and Darra, and the failure to do the 4th platform at Oxley when it would have been easy, both construction wise and financially. The Queensland Auditor General slammed transport planning in SEQ and not hard to understand why is it? The failure to commit to build the stations is a myopic short term financial issue. Long term it is going to add excessive costs of course, much more cost effective to build them green field.

A railway line without the stations in the Springfield context is going to be poorly supported.  Just have a look at the residential areas through the Springfield rail corridor.  Mandurah is an entirely different circumstance, much longer line and different population dynamics.  For a more meaningful local comparison see the proposed stations on the Moreton Bay Rail Link.

Many have been pressing for a change though in the present decision not to construct the stations Ellen Grove and Springfield Lakes greenfield, and I am hopeful that sheer financial and practical reality will eventually hit home.

[#Metro]

So, you are saying skip-stop?  I don't think so.

No. Just what is and has been indicated for ExpressLink and UrbanLink services.

[somebody]

Reminiscent of the not having Ellen Grove/Springfield Lakes on the Springfield line? I think that the transport planners have this sort of thinking in mind - larger spaced train stations to achieve a faster travel time. We cannot just put up these comparisons with Mandurah and on the other hand call for extra stations on the Springfield line.

There is a degree.  I still think that the Ellen Grove & Springfield Lakes stations ARE appropriate and the proposed stations on the Gold Coast line and the ones north of Petrie are NOT appropriate.

Mostly because the Springfield line is short enough that one would like as many walk up pax as possible, but that is not really a big deal for the longer distances.

Back on topic, there is a 3:58pm service to Ipswich, which is followed by a Richlands service 3 minutes laterat 4:01pm. What is the point of this? The Richlands service will just be carrying air. It would be better to space them out a bit more to reduce the 20 minute wait for an Ipswich service either side and the 12 minute wait for a service Milton to Darra. This problem also occurs after 6:00pm where the service pattern is 6 minute wait, 12 minute wait, 6 minute wait etc. I find this terribly strange and not a particularly good use of the investment in Corinda to Darra upgrade.

Or the 3:58pm to Ipswich could become express.  What do you mean about the 20 minute waits though? It's 18 minutes in the shoulder peak before the 3:58pm.  Seems OK.

I'm also still slightly concerned about the frequency of services between 4:30 and 5:30pm, which is the core PM peak rush. I think we will see a lot of overloaded services.

12 minute frequency isn't bad at all IMO.

[ozbob]

Mostly because the Springfield line is short enough that one would like as many walk up pax as possible, but that is not really a big deal for the longer distances.

Exactly.

[Golliwog]

IMO the timetable is pretty good. There are a few oddities but I'm sure theres either a reason for them which can be explained at a consultation session or they can be ironed out if they are just random. Just wondering, does anyone know how big a time window freight services need?

[ozbob]

Freight is mixed in all the time on the Ippy, although for obvious reasons they do mainly stay out of the peaks but not absolutely.

A coal/cattle/container/pipe/grain/mollasses/ballast/rail train at speed is a beautiful thing out west ...

[somebody]

First services still have no improvement. 

And they still see fit to waste resources running the Sunday 1:35am & 11:35pm arrival at Central from Ipswich.  Also the Satuday (Friday night) 1:35am & 2:35am arrivals.  And the Tue-Fri 12:05am & 12:35am arrivals.

Why can't all these services by made first services, or fill in the hourly Sunday AM frequency instead?  Well, Ok, if they got rid of the early finish, then the 11:35pm Sunday arrival would be needed to continue to Caboolture.

[david]

I did not say I wasn't in support of the extra stations on the Springfield line. Rather I was merely pointing out that we cannot make comparisons between Brisbane and Perth and ESPECIALLY Mandurah and the Ipswich lines. They are completely different.

Other point on the timetable, is anyone concerned about the first service from Ipswich arriving at Central at 5:35am? Surely there is grounds for an earlier service?

[ozbob]

 

[O_128]

Something that is going to have to be done is a full quadding of the line to ipswich not the third track to redbank

[#Metro]

I did not say I wasn't in support of the extra stations on the Springfield line. Rather I was merely pointing out that we cannot make comparisons between Brisbane and Perth and ESPECIALLY Mandurah and the Ipswich lines. They are completely different.

I was just pointing out that maybe that was one potential reason why they weren't constructing it.
The "official line" is that there aren't enough people living around that area ,apparently, to warrant a station.
But then again, I don't always believe the official line... look at Kippa ring. First it was unaffordable to operate trains on it, but now suddenly it is viable... really now...

Can we compare Brisbane and Perth? Of course we can... run identical trains on identical gauge. Perth is a car-dependant sprawling city with a similar population to Brisbane.  Springfield is ~ 30 km out from Central, not as far out as Mandurah, but the principle is there. Less stations, further apart, fed by buses. Nice big empty area between Springfield and Richlands, enough to get the service up to a nice high speed competitive with the parallel motorway.

On that note though, a station at Ellen Grove and Springfield (Nev Smith Drive) would not change that speed a lot...

[STB]

Quick question, how much of Perth's rail network does the freight trains use, compared to Brisbane?

[#Metro]

Something that is going to have to be done is a full quadding of the line to ipswich not the third track to redbank

Quick question, how much of Perth's rail network does the freight trains use, compared to Brisbane?

Oh come on STB, you know that answer to that question. 

[STB]

Something that is going to have to be done is a full quadding of the line to ipswich not the third track to redbank

Quick question, how much of Perth's rail network does the freight trains use, compared to Brisbane?

Oh come on STB, you know that answer to that question. 

Actually, I don't!  Although are you hinting that it's about the same?

[#Metro]

I wouldn't know if it were the same or diffrent. I do know the Australind and freight trains do get in each others way though, and that the Armadale line continues to Bunbury where there is a seaport...

[#Metro]

Something that is going to have to be done is a full quadding of the line to ipswich not the third track to redbank

Agreed. But there are so many projects now and ideas for improvements popping up like mushrooms, where do you begin and how does it all get funded???

[somebody]

I believe there is no DG in Perth.  All SG freight trains are completely separated AIUI, with the exception of the prospector train to Kalgoorlie which is SG.  There would be local freights such as grain trains, and I expect these to have to share tracks.

Other point on the timetable, is anyone concerned about the first service from Ipswich arriving at Central at 5:35am? Surely there is grounds for an earlier service?

You didn't notice that I posted the same thing in the post before yours?

[#Metro]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Indian_Pacific_Perth%2C_Western_Australia.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Indian_Pacific_Perth,_Western_Australia.jpg