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Author Topic: Hamilton Reach - rail extension  (Read 2859 times)

Offline ozbob

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Hamilton Reach - rail extension
« on: October 21, 2010, 06:11:41 PM »
There was a report on Channel 7 News this evening that claimed the QR railway line would be extended into Hamilton Reach.
There have been vague suggestions of this before but this is the first direct reporting I have heard.

A CityCat terminal is also planned for Hamilton Reach.

An extension of the rail line is achievable via a cutting underneath KSD ...

 :-w
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 04:20:36 AM by ozbob »
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Offline ozbob

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Re: Hamilton Reach - rail extension
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2010, 06:14:33 PM »
UDLA --> http://www.ulda.qld.gov.au/01_cms/details.asp?ID=162

http://www.northshorehamilton.com.au/
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 06:16:04 PM by ozbob »
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Offline ozbob

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Re: Hamilton Reach - rail extension
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2010, 06:41:34 PM »


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Re: Hamilton Reach - rail extension
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2010, 06:54:41 PM »
What part is Hamilton Reach?  Down near Hamilton Park, the Golf Course, or the east side of the Gateway?

There is a need for some duplication at a minimum if the rail is to be extended.

Offline ozbob

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Re: Hamilton Reach - rail extension
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2010, 06:56:32 PM »
Hamilton Reach is the 'new suburb' from where Hamilton is marked to the golf club.

The open industrial area is to be converted into thousands of high density homes etc.



Quote
Declared on 28 March 2008 and located six kilometres from the Brisbane CBD, the Northshore Hamilton Urban Development Area (UDA) covers 304-hectares of land, with a two kilometre river frontage.

The Northshore Hamilton UDA includes land between Kingsford Smith Drive and the Brisbane River, extending from Bretts Wharf to the west and the Gateway Motorway to the east.

The Northshore Hamilton UDA is close to some of Brisbane’s most important economic drivers, including the Brisbane Airport and the Australia Trade Coast precinct.

http://www.ulda.qld.gov.au/01_cms/details.asp?ID=32
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 06:59:38 PM by ozbob »
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Offline ozbob

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Re: Hamilton Reach - rail extension
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2014, 03:23:03 AM »
Brisbanetimes --> Riverfront Hamilton land opened up to market
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Offline ozbob

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Re: Hamilton Reach - rail extension
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2014, 11:19:36 AM »
Transport failure ...

Brisbanetimes -->Northshore Hamilton: flyover 

 :fp:
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Offline ozbob

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Re: Hamilton Reach - rail extension
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2014, 11:39:19 AM »
For interest ...

The Brisbane Courier 14 Sep 1899

THE HAMILTON TRAMWAY. LAYING- THE FIRST RAIL. A LARGE GATHERING.

>> http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/3701552
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Offline Derwan

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Re: Hamilton Reach - rail extension
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2014, 04:24:22 PM »
I had a look at the website - interactive maps and the like.

By the looks, they're going to rely solely on existing public transport.  The only infrastructure change will be moving Brett's Wharf a bit closer.

There is a proposed "internal bus" between the urban village, residential areas and the business precinct within the development area.  This is the only bus that will actually go THROUGH the area. To get anywhere else, it's either bus from Kingsford Smith Drive or City Cat on the river.

There is no preserved corridor for rail (extension from Doomben).  Under this plan, there can be no rail.
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Offline ozbob

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Re: Hamilton Reach - rail extension
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2014, 05:03:41 PM »
Going to be a nightmare in the years to come.  We are really being governed by idiots ..
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Offline colinw

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Re: Hamilton Reach - rail extension
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2014, 08:04:43 PM »
Chill pill time people, the first part of the Coldstores branch corridor, through to the KSD / Curtin Ave area, is indeed to be preserved.  This is clearly indicated in the interactive masterplan in at least two places, and can be seen in the masterplan map as well.  I have added a red line showing the path of the preserved corridor, although it is unclear to me whether it would swing around to a station on the bottom level of the large building where the visible corridor terminates, or go in a more southerly direction past the old industrial tank farm.

Anyway, this development is not quite as dire as it looks at first glance.

In any case, I think rail would be the 2nd tier PT option after a much improved citycat and KSD BUZ.





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Offline colinw

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Re: Hamilton Reach - rail extension
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2014, 08:11:37 PM »
In terms of infrastructure required, the major cost would actually be a road over rail bridge at KSD.  Drop the branch into a trench as much as is possible within gradient constraints.  Put KSD over the top. Simple single track extension to an el-cheapo station stylistically like a G:Link stop. Re-use the disused overhead infrastructure from Doomben to Eagle Farm or Salisbury to Acacia Ridge - or new if that turns out cheaper than relocating the old stuff.

The road bridge is going to be the major cost.

The other question is whether the extra running time to go one more station  blows up the now half hourly Doomben timetable, and thus requires a part duplication elsewhere on the branch.  If the service gets popular thanks to the 15K people at Hamilton it would probably end up triggering duplication of part or all of the branch anyway - the road over rail bridge on KSD should thus cater for 2 tracks even 'though only one will be built initially.
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Offline ozbob

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Re: Hamilton Reach - rail extension
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2014, 03:28:15 AM »
Even with the 'widening' of KSD, still going to be a congestion sewer nightmare.

Folks would be better off  busing or walking into Doomben.

Queensland is just not with it.  I was impressed with Port Melbourne development, not dissimilar in some respects.  Serviced magnificently by the light rail on the old Port Melbourne VR branch. Marvellous.

In Queensland every thing is too hard, too many non-obstacles that other jurisdictions just sort.
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Offline ozbob

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Re: Hamilton Reach - rail extension
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2014, 03:35:41 AM »
Quote
In terms of infrastructure required, the major cost would actually be a road over rail bridge at KSD.  Drop the branch into a trench as much as is possible within gradient constraints.  Put KSD over the top. Simple single track extension to an el-cheapo station stylistically like a G:Link stop. Re-use the disused overhead infrastructure from Doomben to Eagle Farm or Salisbury to Acacia Ridge - or new if that turns out cheaper than relocating the old stuff.

I had a meeting with the former DPremier once, where he actually outlined exactly that Colin, ie. putting the line into a cutting at KSD.

Who knows might happen in 2031!   2051!  :P
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Offline colinw

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Re: Hamilton Reach - rail extension
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2014, 12:36:59 PM »
In Queensland every thing is too hard, too many non-obstacles that other jurisdictions just sort.
Sadly, with the possible exception of WA, I think QLD is merely the "trend leader" on that front. The dysfunction IS spreading - look at the cost and tantrums of Sydney NWRL, or the utterly outrageous cost of the South Morang extension, or the on-again off-again and how half baked Adelaide Electrification.

I've been spending a fair bit of time at our Docklands Drive office in Melbourne, and have grown to love the cheap and cheerful extension of the trams down to Harbour Town.  Just hop a 70, 86 or free circle tram at the front door of the office.  Intrigued to see that the Docklands Drive tram line uses normal rails, not grooved tram rail too.

I have to wonder, from seeing the Docklands area tram extensions, if the Gold Coast system could not have been built a hell of a lot cheaper than it was simply by tapping Melbourne expertise and tagging on the tram order with the Melbourne built Bombardiers.  But co-ordination and skill sharing between states seems to elude this dysfunctional shambles that we jokingly call a nation.

Getting back on track with the Hamilton extension - there is really no reason why that could not be done as a quick and cheap extension from Doomben.  No need for fancy Taj Mahal stations - a platform with Go Card readers and TransLink orange shelters will do.  As I already said, major expense is getting over or under KSD.

Take the Doomben line trains to northern periphery of Northshore at Curtin Ave area and, combined with KSD bus and CityCat we would have ourselves a reasonably decent waterfront precinct. 

Of course, I expect the concept of such sensible planning and infrastructure development to utterly elude either the numbnuts of either party in George St,or the career do-nothing obfuscators who populate QLD Transport and the smouldering remains of the once great QR.

Pardon my cynicism, but the last 12 months, still working in the industry but under a new name, has made my view of this country very bleak indeed.  Only way to get money spent on rail infrastructure or service is either (a) to pork barrel an electorate or (b) to export greenhouse gases to the world while denying there is a problem.

Queensland is merely the advance guard in this dysfunction. Its spreading - Federally, to other states as well.  Even NZ is doing it better now.
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Offline ozbob

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Re: Hamilton Reach - rail extension
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2014, 12:43:00 PM »
Quote
... career do-nothing obfuscators who populate QLD Transport ...

Sums it up well Colin!

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Offline rtt_rules

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Re: Hamilton Reach - rail extension
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2014, 10:35:17 PM »
My thoughts, I think part of the reason the Doomben line has been kept open is because they do plan to extend it to Hamilton. Hamilton makes an ideal location for a NE side ferry/train exchange. This provides easy access to the inner part of the CBD.

While it would appear a cheap an easy extension there is a bit of work to do, the road will however not change in elevation as this will be both extensively disruptive and costly.

What I see would be needed with the aim to enable 15min (30min is more than doable on single track)

- Eagle junction to just before Hendra Station (west side), duplication. Cheap and simple, ROW and Clayfield station is ready, just lay track and O/H moving existing set of points 1.5km east. At $10m/km for track and O/H this should be about $25m. Maybe more if the station was to be given raised platforms.

- Hendra station, I would extend the existing platform 200m west to remove curve section and speeds up train slightly going over LX, less down time.  $1m if you include raising the platform.

- Ascot Station to Doomben, complete duplication between two and remove redundant trackage, including section just prior to Doomben where the track to Hamilton branches off. Two small pedestrian bridges for Ascot racecourse and embankment needs to be built. $20-30m

- Doomben station to Hamilton, remove existing yard and junction and rebuild into much simplified trackage and O/H for Pinkemba branch and Hamilton. Eliminate numerous points down to 3 sets of points, more if a siding or loop is required. $5m

Single track curve to Hamilton, a cutting is expensive and disruptive for KSA, also maybe complex for flood protection. A viaduct may just be cheaper with single platform station elevated and part of another complex would I think be better. $40-50m

Optional, duplicate Hendra station and down to Ascot station. $30m


I think moving to 15min timetable you will see increased patronage as my Sis in law lived near Clayfield station (5min walk) but drove to EJ due to poor frequency of trains.

Offline Derwan

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Re: Hamilton Reach - rail extension
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2014, 02:30:21 PM »
Chill pill time people, the first part of the Coldstores branch corridor, through to the KSD / Curtin Ave area, is indeed to be preserved.  This is clearly indicated in the interactive masterplan in at least two places, and can be seen in the masterplan map as well.  I have added a red line showing the path of the preserved corridor, although it is unclear to me whether it would swing around to a station on the bottom level of the large building where the visible corridor terminates, or go in a more southerly direction past the old industrial tank farm.

First, if it was "clearly indicated" it'd have a dotted line in the map - even if it was "rail corridor preservation".  (This is a go at the map, not you Colin.  Thanks for doing their job and adding the line for us.)

Second, what's the point of only one station that's right next to Kingsford Smith Drive?  It's only a few hundred metres from Doomben!  Why not take the line down further and put a station in the heart of the residential area - maybe in the "Northshore Central Precinct"?  Yes - some existing properties might be affected but it'd provide a far better long-term solution!
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Offline rtt_rules

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Re: Hamilton Reach - rail extension
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2014, 06:20:10 PM »
Its about 750m by rail, but yes agree. Close to the river would be far better to enable smooth modal change to ferry/cat or at least down towards Nudgee Rd to get more walk up from existing suburbia.

Offline colinw

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Re: Hamilton Reach - rail extension
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2014, 07:01:27 PM »
I'll point out that there never was a rail corridor any further than what has (apparently) been grudgingly preserved.  But I do think it would have been preferable to designate a corridor for rail (possibly on viaduct) further into the precinct, preferably in the direction of the CityCat terminus.

However, at least we have the possibility of a station on KSD, close to both Northshore and parts of Hamilton, and in a much more visible and accessible location than Doomben.

It may only be 700 or so metres, but in terms of the psychology of accessibility there is a world of difference between a station in the KSD/Curtin Ave area and a station tucked away down the backstreets of Doomben.

I'll go so far to say that if this extension does NOT occur, the Doomben line is probably the Doomed line in the longer term.
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Online HappyTrainGuy

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Re: Hamilton Reach - rail extension
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2014, 07:18:01 PM »
It's been doomed since the line closed the first time.
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Offline LD Transit

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Re: Hamilton Reach - rail extension
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2014, 08:58:19 PM »
The next biggest development since South Bank and the train line is just ONE station short! Ha! QUEENSLAND!!
If you actually want passengers on Doomben line, the line needs to extend right there. Bus interchange at Doomben is not the best given all the turn bans etc, turnaround and transfer at Remora Rd is much easier.

I would not overcook it. All the infrastructure proposed could easily wipe out any net value of developing the place at all. There is also patronage risk as well. Rail will accelerate the development IMHO. Doomben Station is too far away, right on the edge of the 800m walk shed, and the services are 30 minutes anyway, so the actual 'pull' of the station is much less.

KISS.

First work out if the rail can get into the place on 30 minute and 15 minute frequency.
I think it should be possible given that services can pass at stations, shouldn't be a problem.
Simple terminus station at Northshore, just before crossing Remora Rd.

Leave the level crossing in.
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Offline red dragin

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Re: Hamilton Reach - rail extension
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2014, 09:52:05 PM »
Are the Hamilton Reach crowd even the train catching type?  :conf

The CityCat maybe as it's more middle upper class to take the boat to work instead of the Merc/Bimmer, but not a train.

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Re: Hamilton Reach - rail extension
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2014, 10:43:42 PM »
First work out if the rail can get into the place on 30 minute and 15 minute frequency.
I think it should be possible given that services can pass at stations, shouldn't be a problem.
Simple terminus station at Northshore, just before crossing Remora Rd.

Leave the level crossing in.

Question is, can KSD cope with having a train run through on average every 10 minutes during peak (4TPH peak and 2TPH counter)?

Offline ozbob

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Re: Hamilton Reach - rail extension
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2014, 03:12:24 AM »
Grade separation will be in place.
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Offline Derwan

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Re: Hamilton Reach - rail extension
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2014, 09:41:07 AM »
Are the Hamilton Reach crowd even the train catching type?  :conf

The CityCat maybe as it's more middle upper class to take the boat to work instead of the Merc/Bimmer, but not a train.

Times are changing.  We're seeing a lot of Gen Y'ers giving up the dream of owning their own home or even a car in many cases.  They'd rather live in their fancy apartments spending the majority of their pay on rent and then catching public transport everywhere.  But yes, I think they'd be more inclined to catch a ferry than a train, but then not everyone needs to go to the city - or somewhere near the river.
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Offline red dragin

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Re: Hamilton Reach - rail extension
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2014, 12:47:07 PM »
Are the Hamilton Reach crowd even the train catching type?  :conf

The CityCat maybe as it's more middle upper class to take the boat to work instead of the Merc/Bimmer, but not a train.

Times are changing.  We're seeing a lot of Gen Y'ers giving up the dream of owning their own home or even a car in many cases.  They'd rather live in their fancy apartments spending the majority of their pay on rent and then catching public transport everywhere.  But yes, I think they'd be more inclined to catch a ferry than a train, but then not everyone needs to go to the city - or somewhere near the river.

Having managed apartment complex's at Kangaroo Point, Woolloongabba, Milton & Kelvin Grove over the past seven years, most of our "Gen Y'ers" had cars and used them. Part of my job was constantly chasing the 2nd car out of the visitor car parks (amazing what happens when one car gets towed away and you tell everyone about it  :)) It was only our internationals that really didn't have cars.

Average rents on those property's are $400-$500 per week. Hamilton Reach appears to be $500-$700 per week  :o. Given that you shouldn't be allowed to spend any more than 30% of your income per week on rent (if they are a responsible agent), I don't expect too many Gen Y'ers on $85k+ per year. My household is on $90k per year and we just manage to get by paying $340 a week (33 & 31 yrs old)

My personal believe is that the cost of providing a train and infrastructure would not generate the returns required. A bus can achieve a more suitable service for less capital outlay in my opinion.

Offline STB

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Re: Hamilton Reach - rail extension
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2014, 12:52:01 PM »
Are the Hamilton Reach crowd even the train catching type?  :conf

The CityCat maybe as it's more middle upper class to take the boat to work instead of the Merc/Bimmer, but not a train.

Times are changing.  We're seeing a lot of Gen Y'ers giving up the dream of owning their own home or even a car in many cases.  They'd rather live in their fancy apartments spending the majority of their pay on rent and then catching public transport everywhere.  But yes, I think they'd be more inclined to catch a ferry than a train, but then not everyone needs to go to the city - or somewhere near the river.

Having managed apartment complex's at Kangaroo Point, Woolloongabba, Milton & Kelvin Grove over the past seven years, most of our "Gen Y'ers" had cars and used them. Part of my job was constantly chasing the 2nd car out of the visitor car parks (amazing what happens when one car gets towed away and you tell everyone about it  :)) It was only our internationals that really didn't have cars.

Average rents on those property's are $400-$500 per week. Hamilton Reach appears to be $500-$700 per week  :o. Given that you shouldn't be allowed to spend any more than 30% of your income per week on rent (if they are a responsible agent), I don't expect too many Gen Y'ers on $85k+ per year. My household is on $90k per year and we just manage to get by paying $340 a week (33 & 31 yrs old)

My personal believe is that the cost of providing a train and infrastructure would not generate the returns required. A bus can achieve a more suitable service for less capital outlay in my opinion.

A lot of the older Gen Yers (25-30 years) will mostly be in the workforce now though so will have for quite a few of them, the income to afford a place of that nature, and most of my Gen Y friends do tend to prefer to live fairly close to the city / city surrounds (normally no further than 10kms from the city) - only several of my friends (Gen Y and Z) live out in the burbs (beyond 15-20kms from the city).

My personal preference is to live close to the city myself, hopefully I'll be able to do that soon.  I know for one thing with myself (Gen Yer - 30 years old), I most definitely do not want to buy a house, much happier to rent and move around.

Offline rtt_rules

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Re: Hamilton Reach - rail extension
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2014, 04:22:00 PM »
Grade separation will be in place.

Agree, no other option

Offline rtt_rules

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Re: Hamilton Reach - rail extension
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2014, 04:31:46 PM »
I dont think there is a rail vs ferry status,  what those with a comfortable lifestyle want is nof travel with great unwashed or those who dont know or care for personal space. Sydney NSL collects some very high incomes.  The other thing is flexibility.

I only think Doomben has survived because of its potential use for Hamilton.

 

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