How far down the Beenleigh line is 15 min off peak frequency possible?

[#Metro]

Does anyone know the answer to this one?

[mufreight]

Since the line is double track from Kuraby to Beenleigh the immediate conclusion is to Beenleigh, this 15 minute frequency is bettered during the peaks at present anyway so the question is itself redundent.

[ClintonL94]

I believe it is possible all the way, look at the morning peak-inbound(including the gold coast line), 15 minute services for both beenleigh and gold coast services from 6:23am-8:08am.

Airport express trains pass the ferny grove trains at fruitgrove(inbound), not sure about outbound. but if its possible inbound surely its possible outbound..

[#Metro]

Thanks for the feedback.
Ok, maybe I should have rephrased my question.

Services on the Beenleigh line are currently every half hour.
That is for the all stations stopping service.

The Airport train only stops at Beenleigh, Coopers Plains and Loganlea, the intermediate stations are left to the 30 minute frequency off peak.

As part of a transitional timetable (between now and when CRR begins) how far can 15 minute off peak frequency on the Beenleigh line be extended without causing problems on the line? Kuraby? Salisbury?

For example, somebody has already established 15 minute off peak, all stops frequency is possible on the Cleveland line
all the way to Manly.

[#Metro]

http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4493.0

[somebody]

Since the line is double track from Kuraby to Beenleigh the immediate conclusion is to Beenleigh, this 15 minute frequency is bettered during the peaks at present anyway so the question is itself redundent.

Actually not really.  In the peaks the current timetable relies on using the third track to allow the Gold Coast trains to overtake.

Technically, you are correct but that would have a major impact on the Gold Coast line.  15 minute frequency to Kuraby is possible with some impact on the Gold Coast line.  Other than that, you would need to use the Rocklea siding or Tennyson loop.

[#Metro]

Technically, you are correct but that would have a major impact on the Gold Coast line.  15 minute frequency to Kuraby is possible with some impact on the Gold Coast line.  Other than that, you would need to use the Rocklea siding or Tennyson loop.

How minor is minor?
Would going to Rocklea only solve that-- might be too short an extension though. But 30 minutes to 15 minutes is a big improvement...

[#Metro]

What about Sunnybank? Every 15 minutes to Sunnybank?

There is a compromise there. Not all the way as far as one would like, but not too short either.
Nearmap would suggest there is space for a 4th track and platform at the new station.

Could a new 4th track just at that station and platform done relatively quickly to be used,
hold for until CRR comes along?

http://www.nearmap.com/?q=Space%20for%20a%20track@-27.580716,153.053931&ll=-27.58019,153.053659&z=19&t=h&nmd=20100911

[somebody]

What about Sunnybank? Every 15 minutes to Sunnybank?

Might be possible, but only if the extra trains cross over to the third, bi-di track around Salisbury.  Trains would be arriving at Salisbury at :19 & :49 and departing at :13 & :43.  So would crash into each other on current dwelling arrangements.  A timetable re-write may sort this.

Impossible to say definitively how major.  The citybound Gold Coast trains could use the bi-di third road to get out of the way of the Kuraby trains, but the outbound trains would need to be delayed by a few minutes.  One of my previous suggestions has been to put in a crossover from the southbound road to the northbound (middle) road immediately after (to the south of) Runcorn or a near station and bi-di the middle road from the crossover to Kuraby.  That would resolve this limitation.  However, it would be a stranded investment post quadruplication.  May well be worthwhile in spite of this.

[#Metro]

Ok, so as far a Sunnybank--- just to clarify:

* 4th track must be constructed at Sunnybank for this to work
* Timetable re-write required...

[david]

Is the question looking at a 15 minute frequency for the Gold Coast Line as well as the Beenleigh Line?

[somebody]

No, you could get 15 minutes to Sunnybank without the quad, just not easily.  It may require infrastructure, but I haven't done the detailed analysis to check this.

Is the question looking at a 15 minute frequency for the Gold Coast Line as well as the Beenleigh Line?

Only doable with quadruplication, or ridiculously complicated passing moves.  And besides, I say the 30 minute frequency is excellent.  It is less excellent when it drops back to hourly though.

[#Metro]

Is the question looking at a 15 minute frequency for the Gold Coast Line as well as the Beenleigh Line?

Unfortunately no.
I would agree with 15 minute off peak frequency to the Gold Coast in the future , but this will require more tracks (express trains reduce line capacity) and that will take time. Mandurah is about 70 km from Perth, and they have 15 minutes off peak as standard service.

A lot has been said about "oh no, we can't do that here" because of all sorts of reasons.
15 minutes Gold Coast in the future is worthwhile- public transport should be easy and convenient to use, standard principle.

15 minutes is convenient. 30 minutes is not.

[ozbob]

The Gold Coast is a prime candidate for 24 hour operation IMHO.   30 minutes outside the peaks 1am to 4am hourly, these could start and finish at BNE.  

[david]

In that case, I would also say 15 minute off-peak would be possible all the way to Beenleigh.

Here's my thinking:

Beenleigh/GC bound

GC trains retain departures at :24 and :54 at Central
Beenleigh trains depart :01 :16 :31 :46

The Beenleigh and GC trains would both use the UP road until after Salisbury, where the GC trains use DOWN (Beenleigh stays on UP)

The GC trains would pass the :16 and :46 Beenleigh trains somewhere around Coopers Plains and arrive at Beenleigh 6 minutes after the :01 and :31 trains

City-bound services

Beenleigh services depart at :00 :15 :30 :45
GC services depart Beenleigh at :57 and :27 (depart Varsity Lakes at :22 and :52 respectively)

Both trains remain on the Third Road from Kuraby to Coopers Plains
- Beenleigh trains cross to the DOWN after Coopers Plains
(I may need to do more investigation to ensure the Beenleigh-City train doesn't clash with the GC-bound trains also using the DOWN between Salisbury and Coopers Plains - from what I have, this is not the case)
- GC remains on the Third Road all the way to South Brisbane. (Passes the :15 and :45 Beeneigh-City services just before Rocklea)

[#Metro]

I am terrible at figuring out which train goes where... I ask re: Beenleigh as it is the only one in the set that has a bit of uncertainty as to what is possible/not possible with regards to a 15 minute transitional timetable.

[somebody]

That is the sort of thing I was thinking of with the complicated overtaking moves.  You could actually do 15 minute frequency to the Gold Coast with operations like that, but not counter peak.

Actually, what you are proposing there doesn't have any conflicting moves that I can see, but I'm not aware of bi-di signaling on the middle road.  I suppose the 15 minute frequency to Beenleigh could not be maintained counter peak.

[#Metro]

That's fine- counter peak, we'll just have to live with that slight 'blemish'.

So 15 minutes all stoppers to Beenleigh is possible in the off peak (minus counter peak)?

[ozbob]

If twenty minute is achievable both ways, this is better than sticking to 30 minute or even longer .. pending upgrades to allow higher frequency.

One aspect that does need addressing is counter peak services as well.  But that is another thread I guess ..  

[david]

Here's a picture of what I mean - please excuse the poor quality...

Salisbury to Sunnybank


Sunnybank to Kuraby


Purple Line is Beenleigh bound

Green Line is Gold Coast bound

Blue Line is Beenleigh to City

Gold Line is Gold Coast to City

EDIT: Improved image quality

[somebody]

One major limitation is that the inbound Gold Coast trains cannot serve Park Rd.  Another is the outbound Gold Coast trains conflicting with the inbound Beenleigh trains.  A couple of extra crossovers could solve these though.

[#Metro]

Skeleton 15 minute timetable here ---> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4506

[#Metro]

Thanks for this David!

Skeleton 15 minute timetable here ---> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4506

How hard/time would it be to add extra crossovers and where should they be located?

[mufreight]

Why can the Gold Coast trains not serve Park Road?

One major limitation is that the inbound Gold Coast trains cannot serve Park Rd.  Another is the outbound Gold Coast trains conflicting with the inbound Beenleigh trains.  A couple of extra crossovers could solve these though.

There is a platform on the dual gauge track through Park Road, a very inconvenient platform one must admit but it has seen infrequent use.

The question posed in this thread was how far was it possible to operate a 15 minute frequency on the Beenleigh line and the reality remains Beenleigh.
Timetabling issues with Gold Coast trains operating to a 30 or even 20 minute frequency would have minor impacts in that in the Beenleigh - Kuraby section their express running might be slowed by two minutes.

[david]

I understand this is going off-topic, but it was questionned whether 15 minute frequencies could be maintained in the counter direction during peak.

I propose that they can.

AM Peak



Purple Line is Beenleigh bound, Green Line is Gold Coast bound, Blue Line is Beenleigh to City, Gold Line is Gold Coast to City

There is a glaring conflict in the crossover near Kuraby, however smart timetabling can avoid this.

Departures from Central
- To GC  :24 :54
- To Beenleigh :12 :27 :42 :57

The :12 and :42 services would need to remain at Kuraby until the GC train can take over. Currently I have them timed both GC and Beenleigh services to arrive at Kuraby at :53 and :23. The Beenleigh service would remain on Platform 1 until the GC train passess through Platform 2.

I will try and come up with a solution for PM peak shortly

[#Metro]

This is true also --->

http://www.nearmap.com/?q=Park%20Rd%20Station@-27.493466,153.030399&ll=-27.492916,153.030469&z=19&t=k&nmd=20100912

Thanks Mufreight!  

[somebody]

Why can the Gold Coast trains not serve Park Road?

I understood that the platform on the DG couldn't be used for some reason?  Too big a gap or something like that.

David, it may work as you propose, but adding crossovers is relatively cheap, so that should be done if a timetable like this is to be implemented.  Other than that, the major limitation I see is the exceedingly tight cross outbound at Kuraby.

Are those labels correct?  Why's the up main end at Kuraby?

[david]

Yep, the labels are correct. I took the network diagrams off QR's website
http://www.queenslandrail.com.au/NetworkServices/DownloadsandRailSystemMaps/SEQ/Pages/southeastqueensland.aspx

I have been working on a 15 minute PM counter-peak, but it has been very difficult and would require either Kuraby to work as an extremely tight passing loop or another crossover inbound from Coopers Plains. Conflicting moves would be unavoidable. Perhaps sticking to 30 mins frequency between 4:30pm and 6:00pm might be an easier option?

[#Metro]

I have been working on a 15 minute PM counter-peak, but it has been very difficult and would require either Kuraby to work as an extremely tight passing loop or another crossover inbound from Coopers Plains. Conflicting moves would be unavoidable. Perhaps sticking to 30 mins frequency between 4:30pm and 6:00pm might be an easier option?

Thanks for this 

So are you saying there are conflicting moves even if a new crossover is put in place?
I think we might be able to live with a small window in the pm where 15 minutes pattern is broken.

[#Metro]

  If it works off peak :-)

Thanks for this David. I would be hopeless at doing this myself!!!

[david]

So are you saying there are conflicting moves even if a new crossover is put in place?

Yes that's correct. The main reason why conflicts occur in the PM peak is because of the GC expresses using the dual-gauge between South Brisbane and Salisbury which is unavoidable.

Below is a diagram of what might occur if PM counter peak was 15 minutes. This use of the tracks would probably occur around after 4:30pm, when 15 minute frequencies of GC begin.



Purple Line is Beenleigh bound, Green Line is Gold Coast bound, Blue Line is Beenleigh to City, Gold Line is Gold Coast to City

Of course, you have the problem of Kuraby terminators as well. But if we pretend that they could magically disappear after terminating at Kuraby (e.g. sending them down to Kingston to turnback) and assuming the current outbond PM peak timetable doesn't change, then a 15 minute frequency counter-peak could work like this:

1) :00 and :30 departures from Beenleigh would remain unaffected
2) :15 and :45 departues from Beenleigh (beginning at 4:15pm and ending at 5:45pm) would have to be held on Platform 2 at Kuraby for approximately 4 minutes extra to allow GC-City services to overtake on Platform 3 (inbound services from GC would pass through Kuraby at about :39 and :09 allowing inbound Beenleigh services to depart at :41 and :11)
3) Departures from Varsity Lakes would be 4 minutes earlier at :48 and :18 beginning at 3:48pm and ending at 5:18pm

Everything would have to run like clockwork as delays on any service could throw everything out. Now that the picture is complete, bring on the 15 minute frequencies!

[somebody]

However, less services are run on the Beenleigh line in the PM peak than the AM.  No more than 6tph.

[ozbob]

Interesting thread, thanks for taking the time to post the diagrams etc. David, and all for the contributions.

[somebody]

Is david's suggestion for the AM peak a good idea?  We would be going back to pre-Kuraby triplication levels of reliability on the Gold Coast and Beenleigh lines, I would suggest.

And what about the off peak?  I have some hesitation with all this complexity.

[david]

I would personally agree with you somebody. It is going to be very complex to have 15 minute frequencies during both AM and PM counter peak. It just leaves less flexibility for the inbound AM and outbound PM peak services. Although with some smart timetablers and planners, I'm quite sure something can still come to fruition (maybe 20 minute frequencies during counter peak as ozbob suggested?)

What I have proposed for the off-peak however is not very complex nor is it impossible to achieve.

[ClintonL94]

Can I get an opinion on this for off peak..

Outbound:
15 minute services to Kuraby - one Kuraby train and the other a Beenleigh train.
30 minute services to the Gold Coast - express Park Road to Beenleigh stopping at Coopers Plains, Kuraby* and Loganlea

Inbound:
30 minutes services from Beenleigh to City and beyond
30 minute services from Kuraby to City(and beyond?)
30 minute services from Gold Coast the City and Airport - express Beenleigh to Park Road stopping at Loganlea, Kuraby* and Coopers Plains.

*The reason for the Gold Coast/Airport trains to stop at Kuraby is to transfer to the Kuraby/City services.

--

Clinton.

[somebody]

On current line pairings, running times and single track constraints, I make the proposed timetable:

Varsity Lakes	:18			:48
Helensvale	:34			:04
Coomera	:40			:10
Beenleigh	:53	:56	:11	:23	:26	:41
Kuraby	~09	:18	:33	~39	:48	:03
Coopers Plains	:17	:30	:45	:47	:00	:15
Bowen Hills	:45	:06	:21	:15	:36	:51
Eagle Junction	:52			:22
International Terminal	:00			:30
Domestic Terminal	:04			:34
Keperra		:29	:44		:59	:14
Ferny Grove		:34	:49		:04	:19
-
Ferny Grove		:51	:06		:21	:36
Keperra		:55	:10		:25	:40
Domestic Terminal	:31			:01
International Terminal	:34			:04
Eagle Junction	:42			:12
Bowen Hills	:49	:25	:40	:19	:55	:10
Coopers Plains	:18	:57	:12	:48	:27	:42
Kuraby	~26	:09	:24	~56	:39	:54
Beenleigh	:43	:30	:45	:13	:00	:15
Coomera	:56			:26
Helensvale	:02			:32
Varsity Lakes	:18			:48

Clearly it doesn't work on the proposed timetable in the southbound direction as the coastie crashes into the Beenleigh train south of Kuraby.  Whatever way I turn it, I cannot make it work.  Things may be different with Ferny Grove-Keperra duplication.  And even without the soutbound trains added in, the northbound timetable is exceedingly tight with only 2 minutes headway possible at Coopers Plains if 3 minute headway is required at Beenleigh - or vice versa.

The only way it would work out is if the line pairings change so that Beenleigh doesn't need to deal with the Keperra-Ferny Grove single track.

I expected as much.

[Golliwog]

Or you could wait 1 year until the Keperra-FG single track is gone. Would probably happen sooner than changing the line pairings given you would probably have to waste time running everything via TL to do that.

[somebody]

Or you could wait 1 year until the Keperra-FG single track is gone. Would probably happen sooner than changing the line pairings given you would probably have to waste time running everything via TL to do that.

I'd still think that the timetable is too tight heading north.  A third platform at Beenleigh would help a little, but I think a crossover from the third road to the middle track somewhere like Sunnybank is needed.  Which tightens up the passing opportunity for heading south, and you still have to contend with single tracks on the airport line and over the Coomera River.

[STB]

Personally I think the best you'll get with the Beenleigh line in the short to medium term is half hourly services to Beenleigh and the Gold Coast as you currently get overlapped with all stoppers to Kuraby.  Half hourly services to the Gold Coast ain't really that bad.