Citizens Public Transport Forum 2010

[ozbob]

Greetings,

It is proposed to hold a one day forum on public transport late August early September on a Saturday.

An organising committee has been formed and the first meeting of the committee is 10th February.

The broad concept at this stage is as follows:

General idea is to have speakers from TransLink (including Gold Coast Rapid Transit), QR, Brisbane Transport, Cross River Rail Project to start.  Possibly invite Minister for Transport or delegate to open. Outline their broad initiatives and so forth, question and answers.

Then some invited speakers on new visions for public transport, with discussions.

Open sessions.

Final speaker ...  to be decided.

Venue:  Possibly QRI Convention Centre (at Central Station)  holds about 70.  Cost is manageable, without food etc. be $4 a person.  We will try to get sponsorship so it might be free.

Anyone who would like to sponsor who reads this please contact me at admin@backontrack.org

If you have any ideas for the forum please post here.

Thanks.

Bob

[#Metro]

Hmm. A light rail company/manufacturer? An engineering co? Metro Trains Melbourne?
Just my 2c

[O_128]

What about EDI??

[Jon Bryant]

Bombardier?

[SteelPan]

OzBob,     

11 outta 10 for this idea - well done - this is the stuff which gets things and pollies (eventually) moving!  Imagine, where our SE Qld Rail and wider PT system would be if this type of COMMUNITY BASED empowerment was happening annually for the last say 25yrs!  Well done again.

My own thoughts are the Transport Minister will not be seen for dust at any such event (sadly), they and their minders spin feel good rubbish at most of the heavily controlled public speaking engagements they attend, simply dropping the words "sustainable" and "world class" to the point you need a sick bag.  As many contributors to these boards know, our system is far from "world class" and heavy reliance on buses does not promote universal long-term "sustainability" - a group of INFORMED and ACTIVE citizens, putting some real hairy questions to them, is the stuff of their worst nightmares.

Further, might I suggest the organising committee also be careful of too many people from the never-ending conference circuit (ie, company execs and academics) - ACTION focused people yes...NOT professional talkers.  It should be a forum with defined outcomes....ie, getting more people interested and ACTIVE in rail /public transport issues...politics is a numbers game and we need the govt giving more time and MONEY to rail/PT.

I wish the organisers all the very best and hope to be there on the day...SE QLD needs this!

[O_128]

Ozbob invite the minsiter now. There is no reason why she cant say no 6 months before the event.

[ozbob]

Reminder our first organising committee meeting is this coming Wednesday (10th).

I informed Minister Nolan of  our plans for the forum yesterday and asked if she would be interested in opening the forum.  The Minister was very supportive.  Official invitations will be made in due course, I have already raised the forum with Mr Strachan CEO TL and he too was most supportive.  Still to talk directly to QR and BT, Cross River Rail but we will do that in time.

[Andrew]

The broad concept at this stage is as follows:

General idea is to have speakers from TransLink (including Gold Coast Rapid Transit), QR, Brisbane Transport, Cross River Rail Project to start.  Possibly invite Minister for Transport or delegate to open. Outline their broad initiatives and so forth, question and answers.

Then some invited speakers on new visions for public transport, with discussions.

Open sessions.

Final speaker ...  to be decided.

I think this is a good idea.  Just don't let the speakers from the GOC's waffle on too much.  I'd like to see an emphasis on the Q & A side of things so that the audience can participate.  Are we talking a full day event too? 

[ozbob]

Yes, all day is being planned.

[O_128]

Public forum where the public can stand up and ask a question would be great.

[ozbob]

The first organising committee was held as planned. More detail later, but that this stage looks like Saturday 4th September, subject to venue availability.  9am to 5pm or thereabouts.

Ozbob Chair
johnnigh Secretary/treasurer
Program sub committee
mch
stb
TIM
Jonno

[ozbob]

More updates shortly.

[ozbob]

Registration is now open!

Please click -->  here for program details and registration information!

:bi

[ozbob]

From the Brisbane mX 4th June 2010 page 4

Your train of thought



Thanks mX!

[ozbob]

Radio 612 ABC Brisbane presenter Jenny Woodward ABC TV (afternoon show) conducted an interview about the forum early this afternoon.

Thanks for the opportunity 612!

[ozbob]

Media release

Community continues call for sustainable transport in lead up to public forum

Sustainable Jamboree is thrilled that around 400 people have signed their two petitions calling for more sustainable transport investment to tackle Centenary's traffic congestion.

Chief Petitioner and Convenor of Sustainable Jamboree, Ngaire McGaw said, "We're very grateful to the community for helping us speak out by taking the time to sign up and we hope more people will join our campaign."

"The petition followed launches of other contrasting petitions in late May that called for more car-based infrastructure," Mrs McGaw said."

"But research shows that more road space simply generates more traffic and more greenhouse gas emissions. It's concerning because oil prices are creeping up and offshore drilling likely to be less common after the Mexican Gulf BP Oil disaster," she said.

"In contrast to the other petitions, ours call for both levels of governments to immediately plan and publicly consult for sustainable transport solutions to traffic congestion," she said.

Some of the options being flagged by Sustainable Jamboree include transit lanes, high frequency express buses, train connections, better access to telecommuting and flexible work conditions, and greater provisions for walking and cycling.

"The thrilling thing is that soon after our petition commenced, the Queensland Government announced a new Office for Sustainable Transport and the fast tracking of the train line to Springfield which will take pressure off the Centenary Highway," she said.

"Still, we need to keep the pressure on and the petitions remain open – one is for Brisbane residents, the other for all Queensland residents. The results have the potential to build momentum in the lead up to a Citizens Public Transport Forum on Saturday 4 September at Central Railway Station," Mrs McGaw said.

A Sustainable Jamboree supporter, Dr John Nightingale is to be one the presenters at the forum. Participants can register online at http://backontrack.org/cptf/

The links to the petitions are available online at http://sustainablejamboree.org                  

[ozbob]

From The Satellite 7th July 2010 page 3

Hundreds sign for more sustainable transport

[#Metro]

Good on them. A BUZ on their suburb.

[ozbob]

Register now!

Click --> here for all details and registration forms.

[colinw]

I'd live to come, except I'll be in Sydney attending a wedding that weekend.  

[ozbob]

http://backontrack.org/cptf

[mufreight]

The forum was well worth attending, the addresses given by Paul Scurrah CEO, QR and Luke Franzman were the highlights of the Forum, both were most interesting and informative and elicited a number of relevant questions which  were responded to with clear informative off the cuff answers.
Well done by all concerned, the only disappointment was that Minister Nolan did not take questions to clarify a number of points which her address raised.            

[Sunbus610]

I just wanted express my appreciation to Ozbob (and others involved) in organising today's CTP forum 2010 at QRI, it was certainly a great opportunity for us all to get together and discuss / listen on many issues relating to public transport (and the future plans for it) generally in South East Queensland but also around the rest of Queensland in general. A big thanks also to the dignitaries that gave their valuable time today to come along and share their knowledge and proposals relating to this topic and also for the beaut ladies in the kitchen that put on a tasty MT/Lunch/AT  Lets hope this becomes a regular event from time to time!!

[Derwan]

It was a great day.  I have to say that I enjoyed Chris's presentation the most.  It was a well-informed unbiased view without pushing any agendas.  Great stuff!

[richard]

Agree totally - excellent day - thanks all - lots of information and things to mull over.

Couple of things that occupied my mind on the way home:

Luke said that the new station would be partitioned (can't remember his word) meaning that doors on the platform will open to correspond with doors on the train, and only open once it has stopped.  I have seen this in London and Singapore, and it is an excellent idea.  But, unless I am mistaken, they do not rely on the driver stopping the train - it stops automatically.  Is anyone aware of somewhere where the train is driven by a human and must stop at exactly the right spot?

Secondly, unlike a previous poster, Chris's presentation lacked some credibility for me because it is not possible to expect SEQ transport to compare to Hong Kong (though we can learn from them).  Journey times in SEQ are surely significantly longer, impacting both the number of journeys and operating costs per kilometre.  Additionally, I think providing the area supported would have added to the balance of the picture

Which leads to my two questions:

Is there a transit authority anywhere that has comparable urban, suburban, rural, interurban, tourist and local responsibility?

Would we be wise to invest in automatic train management, so that we could reduce headways between trains to pick up the increase in urban journeys and bus feeders that Chris propsoed, and which have been declined due to the system being at capacity, as well as ensuring the train doors stops adjacent to the platform doors

Lastly, why do QR not put bikes in the spare cab in the middle of a 6 car train (although could be an issue if the guard changes and a person other than the owner claims the bike.

richard

[#Metro]

Is there a transit authority anywhere that has comparable urban, suburban, rural, interurban, tourist and local responsibility?

Perth?
Toronto?

[Derwan]

Secondly, unlike a previous poster, Chris's presentation lacked some credibility for me because it is not possible to expect SEQ transport to compare to Hong Kong (though we can learn from them). 

I understood that the idea WAS to learn from them - not compare ourselves to them.  At least that's what I took away from the presentation.

[somebody]

It was certainly interesting to hear differing viewpoints.

I did notice those from more academic backgrounds arguing for transfers and those from actual service provision backgrounds - not.  Noticed no one had an answer to the question: "would the rail system cope with more pax transferring from buses?".

[#Metro]

Noticed no one had an answer to the question: "would the rail system cope with more pax transferring from buses?".

I don't see why the rail system wouldn't cope. They would have to upgrade services finally! Double the frequencies! Upgraded signaling. Cross River Rail.

Perhaps the question should be turned upside down- "would the bus system and CBD streets cope with more pax?" the answer is probably not.

Perth has done it. Why can't Brisbane do it?

[ozbob]

Thanks to our committee and all speakers for their contributions to this forum.

At all levels it was an excellent update from the Minister, TransLink, QR and Brisbane Transport.

The presentation on Cross River Rail was informative.

Dr John Nightingale's presentation on active transport and related issues was engaging and also challenged the status quo with respect to active transport support.

Chris Hale presented update data on mass transit globally which confirms why rail needs to be ramped up.  Opportunities for value capturing and system improvement (including more feeder buses) can be achieved in Queensland and elsewhere.  The perspectives from  mass transit systems worldwide was interesting and grounded in observation and data analysis.  

Thanks for the support from those able to make it on the day.  The venue was just right for this forum.

Hopefully we can look to doing something similar next year, the 2011 Citizens Public Transport Forum.  One of the main topics will be no doubt 'Gold Coast Light Rail'.

Cheers
Bob

[ozbob]

Some photographs from the forum



Minister for Transport, Hon Rachel Nolan MP




Robert Dow - Convenor




Mr Peter Strachan - Chief Executive Officer of the TransLink Transit Authority




Mr Paul Scurrah - Chief Executive Officer of Queensland Rail




Mr Alan Warren - Divisional Manager Brisbane Transport




Mr Luke Franzmann Cross River Rail Project Director




Dr John Nightingale - Economist and active transport supporter




Mr Chris Hale - University of Queensland researcher in sustainable transport strategy, Transit Oriented Development, mass transit planning, and the urban economy.

Photographs Derwan 4th September 2010

[somebody]

Noticed no one had an answer to the question: "would the rail system cope with more pax transferring from buses?".

I don't see why the rail system wouldn't cope. They would have to upgrade services finally! Double the frequencies! Upgraded signaling. Cross River Rail.

Really?  The Merivale bridge is approaching capacity.  It seems perfectly clear that the rail system couldn't cope with a tripling of peak patronage.  Even from the north and with CRR1, it wouldn't cope.  Not sure what headways you could get to with better signaling.

Perhaps the question should be turned upside down- "would the bus system and CBD streets cope with more pax?" the answer is probably not.

Yes.  You are only talking about a 50% increase.  Use Ann St more from the north/east.  Margaret St more from the south etc.  Alan Warren also suggested making Elizabeth St two way which would be good, even (or especially) if it was westbound only for buses.

[Derwan]

A couple of things I wrote down while listening to the speakers:

TransLink are no longer fining QR for poor on-time performance.  (Not sure if this has been mentioned in the forum before.  I couldn't remember.)

Patronage on BUZ services have increased dramatically since their introduction.  I believe that this can be attributed to the turn-up-and-go frequency. Of course this HAS been mentioned (I'm sure numerous times) in the forum before - but the stats made it bleedin' obvious and I hope Mr Strachan took notice as he listened to Mr Warren's presentation.

If the government wants to increase the mode-share of public transport, they should be increasing frequency first - not building new lines.  Of course, any infrastructure updates to support the additional frequency should take future planned lines into consideration.

[#Metro]

You can't keep carrying these people on buses. Terminal capacity.
What is not sustainable, simply will not be sustained.

Cross River Rail will take those pax and relieve the Merivale Bridge.
The freed up Merivale Bridge will also have freed-up slots for those pax.

Brisbane just cannot spent billions on building a busway out to Northgate, Manly, Loganlea which will give a slower trip overload the bus system. There is no need, the rail is already there. And if the system gets full, increase the capacity with longer trains, more frequent services (trains every 2 minutes) and more tracks.

Increasing feeder frequency to rail services (all the buses to the list) will supply pax to the rail system and get patronage right up.


Push for rail tunnel funding

BRISBANE will need another six King George Square bus stations within 16 years to cope with booming population growth unless funding for the city's second cross-river rail tunnel is found, the project chief has warned.

Mr Franzmann said the southeast's reliance on buses and building more roads was not sustainable, with an extra 1200 buses expected to be moving through the CBD every hour by 2026. "We know the inner city bus infrastructure can't cope with that," he said.

"The key drivers are a lack of set down and pick-up space and some key constraints on the network. To handle that we would require a significant investment in bus infrastructure – the equivalent of six King George Square busway stations, as well as the surface infrastructure that would be required."

The cross-river rail link could be expected to carry 30,000 commuters every hour on both the inbound and outbound lines.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/features/push-for-rail-tunnel-funding/story-fn4z2520-1225834056511

[#Metro]

Really?  The Merivale bridge is approaching capacity.  It seems perfectly clear that the rail system couldn't cope with a tripling of peak patronage.  Even from the north and with CRR1, it wouldn't cope.  Not sure what headways you could get to with better signaling.

Yes.  You are only talking about a 50% increase.  Use Ann St more from the north/east.  Margaret St more from the south etc.  Alan Warren also suggested making Elizabeth St two way which would be good, even (or especially) if it was westbound only for buses.

I don't quite understand this. So rail network trips will go up 300% (triple) if carried by rail, but only 50% if carried by bus? What happens to the other 250 %?

Getting T3 lanes on Coro drive is like getting blood from a stone, getting space on CBD streets seems unlikely and insufficient given Mr Franzmann's comments in the Courier-Mail. Worthy to lobby for, but I just can't see it happening.

[somebody]

That's because almost double the number of people travel on bus as compared to rail.

[#Metro]

Do you have a link to this statistic?
I know that buses carry more annually, but the rail network with 30 minute off peak services and few connecting buses is grossly underutilized. Rail has a greater peak line capacity than buses.

[somebody]

Do you have a link to this statistic?
I know that buses carry more annually, but the rail network with 30 minute off peak services and few connecting buses is grossly underutilized. Rail has a greater peak line capacity than buses.

Sure!  Link: http://download.translink.com.au/about/0910q2_tracker.pdf

That was 13.66m/quarter on train, 28.64m/quarter on bus.  It would be better if these figures are broken down into peak hour only I guess.  That may make the bus domination less severe.

Notice how train patronage has dropped, and by more than the 11 trip weekly assumption can explain.

I actually looked for the most up to date figures in the most recent Translink Tracker (http://download.translink.com.au/about/0910q3_tracker.pdf), but you know what?  They have apparently pulled publication of these figures.  Time to replace Translink's management, I'm afraid.  They are clearly only interested in spin and obfuscation.

Oh, and rail would only grow by 200%.  That's a tripling.

[#Metro]

Thanks for that statistic. It is about past patronage- how many people currently use the network under the current conditions (which is pretty poor in the service level and access to stations departments!).

It doesn't tell us anything about how much capacity the rail system will have in the future compared to bus when the upgrades are done.
It merely confirms that the rail system is grossly underutilized. Like the BUZ, a lot of that growth would also be in the off peak times and on weekends. More services more often would carry more people in peak, but would allow passengers to spread the time they are traveling on the network.

In Hong Kong, most trips on the rail network are made in the OFF peak. This is measured in the peak/base ratio.
It is the same for Munich. Perth's patronage is also more spread out. All three places have feeder buses to rail stations AIUI.
Good rail systems manage to spread their peaks.

There will always be a need for bus line haul. The BUZ services do that, and there should be more of them (450 and 100). Some of them may also good candidates for street running LRT (199, 385). However, there are many lower frequency bus routes and existing feeder bus services that would be better off being improved and re-organised to rail. And certainly when there will be access points to this Express rail network which will take people in and out of the CBD on an express train.

[somebody]

Umm, won't capacity be pretty close to 50% more than current?  About 2/3 of current capacity is used.  Yes, it is likely that because those figures aren't broken down by peak & off peak that would be a factor.