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Author Topic: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade  (Read 98975 times)

Offline p858snake

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Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« on: December 03, 2009, 10:48:48 AM »
Newletter: (Link) {PDF}
Upgrade Fast Facts: (Link) {PDF}
Conecpt Plan: (Link) {PDF}
QR SEPIP Rail Info Page: (Link)

Issues I can see with that concept plan:
* No crossing from the car parking to the platform near the Arbor Street end
    - If elderdly or physically handicapped people need to park down that end due to parking space availablity.
* Station building location
    - If/When that track ever gets extedned again that it will need to be completly demolished and it does seem awlfully large for a station building when we are progressing to GoCards only....
* Bus Interchange
    - It is currently used by a large under of school buses in the afternoon picking up the transfer from the other schools and such and the planed one doesn't seem to counter that in.
* Greenage
    - There seens to be little or no planing of trees in the plan on the Conavalla side
* Bus Lane
    - On the bottom corner along Samford road near the translink logo, there is a small bus lane shown which currently isn't there in Real Life so where is that heading?
* Access from Samford Road
    - Based on the plan you can't seem to easily get in from Samford Road unless you want to park. To access the Drop off zone (or as they like to call it "The Kiss'N'Go zone) you need to go via Arbor street which is a shitty intersection to turn on. Also a fair few of the people using that would be the ones from the Samford and outlying regions such as Dayboro so its pointless having it on that side forcing the traffic that would use it to sit at traffic lights on the Samford/Arbor Street intersection.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2009, 10:59:16 AM by p858snake »

Jon Bryant

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2009, 11:10:15 AM »
The Government keeps talkng about TOD's but never takes the opportunity to implement them.  Ferny Grove is a perfect opportuity and what do we get a 'Car Park'.  Still stick in the 1970's aren't we!!!

Offline Derwan

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2009, 12:31:22 PM »
I think the building height restrictions in the outer suburbs cause issues for TOD's.  Perhaps the plan is to wait until development rules change (they're gradually getting higher, further from the city).  Once a decent size building can go up, the car park can be developed into a TOD. 
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somebody

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2009, 01:32:31 PM »
1000 place car park!  I believe that will be the biggest on the network.  I suppose the biggest station outside the core.

Do we really need the 3 platforms?  I'd have thought that 2 would suffice with relay crews, and possibly even without.  And you could ask CityRail how they turn something like 15tph at Bondi Junction on 2 platforms.

Offline WTN

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2009, 03:12:31 PM »
I'm still a bit puzzled as to why they would put the station building over the end of the tracks.  Sort of makes it hard to extend the line (like Cleveland is now).  There's probably a case for future extension as I once witnessed a large number of passengers staying on to the very end of the line. 
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somebody

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2009, 03:42:19 PM »
I'm still a bit puzzled as to why they would put the station building over the end of the tracks.  Sort of makes it hard to extend the line (like Cleveland is now).  There's probably a case for future extension as I once witnessed a large number of passengers staying on to the very end of the line. 
You are correct in that a large number of people stay on to the end.  Roughly 1/4 of the line's commuters use this station.  But future extension is pretty unlikely IMO.  Where would it go?  Through the hills to Samford?  Apparently it used to, but I don't see that there's enough people there to justify it.  And if they did, in the future, decide to extend it demolishing the station building wouldn't be very expensive.

Oh, and how will the proposed car parking areas provide 1000 spaces?  Are they going to build a multi-level car park?

Jon Bryant

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2009, 03:54:52 PM »
Here is a wild and crazy concept.  State and Local Government work together to do a local plan and allow high, densiyt and urban form to allow a TOD.  BCC has done it at Mitchelton and the plan looks good.    The State Government then call for expression of interest to JV the contruction on their land and then provides the feeder bus services to the surrounding suburbs. 

somebody

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2009, 05:22:00 PM »
Is there much merit in an infill station between Keperra & Ferny Grove?  The golf course means it can only get walk up pax from one side, of course.

Offline stephenk

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2009, 07:16:32 PM »
Thanks for posting the links. The duplication will be completed only about 4 years after it was required!

The plans looks like it is trying the maximum the use of available space at Ferny Grove for car parking, with knock on compromises in design. The plans remove the overrun track that can store a failed or extra train, but at least the 3rd platform makes up for it. I'm surprised at the addition of the 3rd platform as the ICRCS says that it is required in 2018, but it is good to see some foresight for a change.  

I hope that the bus station is used effectively by frequent feeder bus services around Ferny Grove/Hills, and Samford to reduce the pressure on car parking.

Edit: I would be interested to know if a multi-story car park had been considered, and if so, why was it rejected? Also, I hope that with the duplication, we get a sensible timetable that provides a peak time metro like service i.e. train at least every 10mins for ALL stations on the Ferny Grove Line. Finally, I'd be interested to see the track crossover layout - a level crossing in the middle of the terminus interlocking will be unusual!

« Last Edit: December 03, 2009, 08:05:24 PM by stephenk »
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Evening peak service to Enoggera* 2010 - 4tph
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Offline p858snake

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2009, 08:43:17 AM »
Finally, I'd be interested to see the track crossover layout - a level crossing in the middle of the terminus interlocking will be unusual!
According to the ladies that were at the information desk, there were no planned crossovers except at the end at the station building, but heaps of people were filling the feedback forms saying one should be at the other end so it might change.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 08:45:18 AM by p858snake »

Offline paulg

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2009, 10:58:08 AM »
Can someone please explain to me why this duplication is needed?
Surely the last 3.2km of the line can be single-track, unless they need to have <10 min frequency?
There are gaps in the morning peak of up to half an hour (6:37-7:05, 7:34-7:56), surely these could be filled before worrying about sub-10 min gaps?
If they really do need more than 1 train per 10 min in the morning peak, couldn't they just add a platform and stable a train or two there overnight?
Forgive my ignorance if I have overlooked anything obvious.

Cheers, Paul

Jon Bryant

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2009, 10:58:53 AM »
I just noticed it say $62.8M for the 3.2km of track.  That is almost $20M a km.  ARTC says it should cost $2M per km on flat terrain which this is?  Am I missing something?  I travelled this line through my whole Highschool (started on the old rattlers) and there should not be a need for resumption unless they are buying up a enough land for tiplification? The amount just seems far too high?

Online ozbob

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2009, 11:05:46 AM »
There are costs associated with re-establishing the construction teams, training, re-establishment of equipment and so forth.

This state is a total shambles with respect to long term planning and smart-financially prudent construction.

It would have cost probably around $20M if it was done seamlessly as part of the Mitchellton - Keperra duplicaiton.  No, the idiots stop.

Like wise presently between Corinda and Darra.  Around $8 million to electrify the 4th line as part of the present construction. Hell no, this is Queensland, lets come back in 5 years and do it for $80 million.

Am I p%ssed off with the fools?  You bet ...
« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 11:09:51 AM by ozbob »
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Jon Bryant

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2009, 11:25:43 AM »
Too true.  So electrification will add a bit but still.  I would say this is bad negotiating? Do JV with Cost + Margin but this just seems far too high.  Somebody is making a killing on this?
« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 11:56:40 AM by Jon B »

somebody

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2009, 01:31:52 PM »
There are gaps in the morning peak of up to half an hour (6:37-7:05, 7:34-7:56),
That's got more to do with QLD public transport planners' inability to make a decent timetable than a lack of patronage.  On your other comments, I'll wait for the usual suspects before commenting.

STB

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2009, 01:48:45 PM »
How would you know the ability of the planner?  I would assume you don't work with them and never have, therefore it's invalid for you to say that the planner's ability is below par, there is more than one planner doing it.  Do you have transport planning experience in Qld to justify your claim?  Have you seen the actual train diagram for the Suburban network to justify your claim?

It's more than likely that there just simply isn't a clear train path between those times, whether it's out of the yards to form that service, between the city and Ferny Grove to form that service or between Ferny Grove and the City, or even after it leaves Roma Street.  Especially when you take in the safeworking and rostering that is placed in the timetable.

somebody

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2009, 02:37:19 PM »
How would you know the ability of the planner?  I would assume you don't work with them and never have, therefore it's invalid for you to say that the planner's ability is below par, there is more than one planner doing it.  Do you have transport planning experience in Qld to justify your claim?  Have you seen the actual train diagram for the Suburban network to justify your claim?
Note that I didn't say a single planner.  I was more talking about QR/Translink being either unwilling or unable to design a proper timetable.  I took the truth of that statement to be an axiom. I wasn't trying to be rude to any individual planners.

Offline mufreight

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2009, 02:38:41 PM »
The forward transport planning for passenger rail in this state has been abismal since work was stopped on the original electrification project in the 1950's suffering from shortsightedness and the infliction of political expediency over the realities of practical need.
The creation of SEQUIP and its ongoing failures is proof of this, with bureaucracy more interested in justifing its existence that getting on with the job which has the end result of overly inflated costs to do half a job.
Corinda Darra being a good example. New platforms being built to 1950's standards of height rather than carriage floor height, the failure to build the fourth platform at Oxley and to electrify the fourth track despite the governments own transport predictions that the fourth line will need to be avaliable by 2015.
In terms of cost to have built the fourth platform at Oxley and to have electrified that trach as part of the current project has been estimated as costing $20 million yet it has been estimated that the start up costs alone to recomence the project to carry out this work will in present day dollars cost $17 million and the cost of the actual work if carried out in 2015 under the conditions of a line actually in traffic is in excess of $80 million.
So much for the competency of the current Government and transport planners, need more be said.
Facts and end results speak for them selves  :-t
« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 02:40:19 PM by mufreight »

Offline david

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2009, 06:59:59 PM »
Sounds like good news. Ferny Grove commuters must be celebrating. 5 minute peak frequencies are probably just around the corner.

With regards to the current debate, I shall play devil's advocate here...

Although everyone sees the Corinda-Darra upgrade as half-baked and short-sighted, by not electrifying the fourth track and having no fourth platform, all tradies can be guaranteed of a job in a few years time when the third track hits capacity. Same with the Mitchelton to Keperra upgrade. By not going all the way to Ferny Grove, suddenly people have jobs again. Once again, the half-baked Springfield (currently Richlands) line. By not going all the way to Springfield by 2012, jobs will suddenly become available. The list is endless...

Mind you, all those tradies must be lapping up these job opportunities :D

Disclaimer - I would much prefer that Corinda to Darra is electrified and the 4th platform built at Oxley. I would also like to see the line extended all the way to Springfield, with the Ellen Grove and Springfield Lakes stations

Offline stephenk

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2009, 08:07:28 PM »
I just noticed it say $62.8M for the 3.2km of track.  That is almost $20M a km.  ARTC says it should cost $2M per km on flat terrain which this is?  Am I missing something?  I travelled this line through my whole Highschool (started on the old rattlers) and there should not be a need for resumption unless they are buying up a enough land for tiplification? The amount just seems far too high?
Did you ever look out of the window? The track is winding in places, has some gradients, runs on the edge of slope for part of the course, crosses three creeks, and two level crossings! 

Finally, I'd be interested to see the track crossover layout - a level crossing in the middle of the terminus interlocking will be unusual!
According to the ladies that were at the information desk, there were no planned crossovers except at the end at the station building, but heaps of people were filling the feedback forms saying one should be at the other end so it might change.
Sorry, I was referring to the actual track crossovers (points, switches, interlockings etc), not the pedestrian crossing.  :)

Can someone please explain to me why this duplication is needed?
Surely the last 3.2km of the line can be single-track, unless they need to have <10 min frequency?
There are gaps in the morning peak of up to half an hour (6:37-7:05, 7:34-7:56), surely these could be filled before worrying about sub-10 min gaps?
If they really do need more than 1 train per 10 min in the morning peak, couldn't they just add a platform and stable a train or two there overnight?
Forgive my ignorance if I have overlooked anything obvious.

Cheers, Paul
Er, looking at the current timetable helps.  ::) Trains depart FG at 6:30, 6:45, 7:06, 07:16, 07:26, 07:43, 07:55, 08:07, 08:20, 08:30.

The FG Line currently runs 7tph in the am peak, 5 tph from FG, and 2 tph from Mitchelton. The single track section can only handle 6tph/10min freq max - less than the required frequency of 7tph+. As some trains thus have to reverse at Mitchelton, this blocks a track for approx 8 mins which further restricts timetabling. The mix of Mitchelton reversers, and express services, results in a very suboptimal timetable for many users.

By duplicating to Ferny Grove, the line will be much more flexible. This will hopefully result in a more frequent and homogenous timetable (in theory). By virtually eliminating timetabling restrictions on the Ferny Grove Line, the knock on effects should also help scheduling on the Beenleigh and Cleveland Lines as well.
Evening peak service to Enoggera* 2007 - 7tph
Evening peak service to Enoggera* 2010 - 4tph
* departures from Central between 16:30 and 17:30.

somebody

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2009, 09:25:33 AM »
Can someone please explain to me why this duplication is needed?
Surely the last 3.2km of the line can be single-track, unless they need to have <10 min frequency?
There are gaps in the morning peak of up to half an hour (6:37-7:05, 7:34-7:56), surely these could be filled before worrying about sub-10 min gaps?
If they really do need more than 1 train per 10 min in the morning peak, couldn't they just add a platform and stable a train or two there overnight?
Forgive my ignorance if I have overlooked anything obvious.

Cheers, Paul
Er, looking at the current timetable helps.  ::) Trains depart FG at 6:30, 6:45, 7:06, 07:16, 07:26, 07:43, 07:55, 08:07, 08:20, 08:30.

The FG Line currently runs 7tph in the am peak, 5 tph from FG, and 2 tph from Mitchelton. The single track section can only handle 6tph/10min freq max - less than the required frequency of 7tph+. As some trains thus have to reverse at Mitchelton, this blocks a track for approx 8 mins which further restricts timetabling. The mix of Mitchelton reversers, and express services, results in a very suboptimal timetable for many users.

By duplicating to Ferny Grove, the line will be much more flexible. This will hopefully result in a more frequent and homogenous timetable (in theory). By virtually eliminating timetabling restrictions on the Ferny Grove Line, the knock on effects should also help scheduling on the Beenleigh and Cleveland Lines as well.
Good points.  Regarding the Mitchelton terminators, in the PM peak you could easily terminate on the inbound platform which would only need to avoid 2pth at present; the empties could work around it, but that's not so good in the AM peak, even though it's an island platform.  If FG expresses were running at 4pth, the AM Mitchelton starter would need to arrive right after it left, 8mins to turn around, then the next FG express will be catching up to it before it arrives at Bowen Hills.  So I guess if there was a 3rd platform at Mitchelton or if you used the wrong platform for Mitchelton starters it could work, but it's not perfect.

Offline Derwan

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2009, 12:25:22 PM »
So I guess if there was a 3rd platform at Mitchelton or if you used the wrong platform for Mitchelton starters it could work, but it's not perfect.

I think the whole point is that once the duplication occurs, there will no longer be a need to terminate trains at Mitchelton.  They'll all go through to Ferny Grove.  :)
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somebody

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2009, 01:02:01 PM »
With regards to the current debate, I shall play devil's advocate here...

Although everyone sees the Corinda-Darra upgrade as half-baked and short-sighted, by not electrifying the fourth track and having no fourth platform, all tradies can be guaranteed of a job in a few years time when the third track hits capacity. Same with the Mitchelton to Keperra upgrade. By not going all the way to Ferny Grove, suddenly people have jobs again. Once again, the half-baked Springfield (currently Richlands) line. By not going all the way to Springfield by 2012, jobs will suddenly become available. The list is endless...
But then all the tradies need to find a job to fill in the gap in between the times.  I'm sure they would much rather a longer tenure of employment than a possibility of a return in 2-3 years, which is not guaranteed.

So I guess if there was a 3rd platform at Mitchelton or if you used the wrong platform for Mitchelton starters it could work, but it's not perfect.

I think the whole point is that once the duplication occurs, there will no longer be a need to terminate trains at Mitchelton.  They'll all go through to Ferny Grove.  :)
Yep, I would think so too.

I was just thinking through the possibility (looks unlikely now) that the duplication doesn't go through, the consequences, and also the options up until such a time that it does.

Offline Derwan

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2009, 08:31:24 PM »
Considering they're removing the line beyond FG and demolishing the Tavern, perhaps they should have widened Conavalla St and make it connect to a new road (with pedestrian overpass) behind the station building up to Samford Rd.  That way they could remove the level crossing altogether to eliminate safety issues and the turn back delays that I remember stephenk mentioning.

I'm not familiar with the area, so am not sure whether the idea is feasible - but it'd be good to eliminate a level crossing.

Here's a rough idea of what I'm talking about:

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Offline p858snake

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2009, 11:39:19 AM »
You can already get up there if you go up to the next level crossing/police station and turn there. But people will never go for it because "omg i have to drive longer"

Offline paulg

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2009, 01:47:20 PM »
Thanks for the replies to my original post (http://backontrack.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3083.msg17375#msg17375)

I would still have spent the $63 million elsewhere (eg put it towards the Beerburrum-Landsborough duplication) instead of spending it here. It is a lot of money to spend for the sake of 1 or 2 extra trains per day. Why not spend a much smaller amount of money on a stabling facility at Ferny Grove, that would allow a couple of extra peak hour services if they are really needed.

Cheers

Jon Bryant

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2009, 04:35:54 PM »
I though the Ferny Grove line had one of the higher passenger loads and has achived that that with really bad frequency.  I am still struggling with the price tag but not the need. Cleveland line next please!!!!
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 04:52:32 PM by Jonno »

Offline stephenk

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2009, 08:38:47 PM »
Thanks for the replies to my original post (http://backontrack.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3083.msg17375#msg17375)

I would still have spent the $63 million elsewhere (eg put it towards the Beerburrum-Landsborough duplication) instead of spending it here. It is a lot of money to spend for the sake of 1 or 2 extra trains per day. Why not spend a much smaller amount of money on a stabling facility at Ferny Grove, that would allow a couple of extra peak hour services if they are really needed.

Cheers

I don't think you quite understand the issue:-
1) Ferny Grove has no room for stabling
2) Ferny Grove needs more car parking
3) Ferny Grove is the busiest suburban station on QR CityTrain, and most peak services are heavily loaded
4) The single track section causes a headache for schedulers, resulting in an unattractive "random" timetable
5) The constraints of the Ferny Grove Line have knock on effects to many other lines, in particular the Beenleigh and Cleveland Lines

As a side note the Ferny Grove Line handles approx 10x more am peak passengers than Elimbah to Nambour. I don't quite see your argument for prioritisation of funds?
Evening peak service to Enoggera* 2007 - 7tph
Evening peak service to Enoggera* 2010 - 4tph
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Jon Bryant

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2009, 09:18:22 PM »
Stephenk, you have confirmed what I had heard. On the car parking, more car parking is not the answer.   Park and Rides are an inefficient strategy at encouraging public transport because:

- there is never going to be enough -  1000 spaces even at 2 people per car is only 2 and a bit trains.  This means that the passengers on all other trains are discouraged from travelling;
- they are expensive to provide - on average almost $20,000 per space if an open car park.  Multi-storey is significantly higher;
- they are contrary to good land use planning - they displace other, more useful commercial, residential and community activities. They also force these activities further away and thus increase urban sprawl;
- they places pressure on car parking in surrounding areas/commercial centres - because there will never be enough car spaces to accommodate all train users, giving people no alternative than to drive to the station means that pressure is inevitably placed on parking in surrounding areas including nearby shops;
- they assume everyone has access to a car - park-and-rides require even regular public transport users to have access to a cars and has nothing to offer the 47% of our population than do not have access/or cannot drive a car; and finally
- they undermine public transport use - one of the biggest problems with the idea of driving to public transport is psychological. Once you've started your journey in a car, you've got little reason not to drive it all the way to your destination; a fact not lost on public transport users themselves. Further they entrench driving for local trips purposes by undermining local public transport use.

Feeder bus services provide a far better option as they have useful functions other than conveying train passengers to railway stations. Half of all our journeys are local trips, with the origin and destination within the same suburb, and when such journeys are made by car they also contribute disproportionately to pollution and congestion. A comprehensive bus network is essential to making public transport attractive for these local trips. But as suburban activity centres and railway stations should be found in the same locations (TOD) the same buses that are useful for local travel are also useful as feeders to stations. Toronto provides an excellent example of feeder services to their local railway stations with over 70% of passengers arriving at their train station by bus or tram.

Offline stephenk

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2009, 10:15:07 PM »
Stephenk, you have confirmed what I had heard. On the car parking, more car parking is not the answer.   Park and Rides are an inefficient strategy at encouraging public transport because:

- there is never going to be enough -  1000 spaces even at 2 people per car is only 2 and a bit trains.  This means that the passengers on all other trains are discouraged from travelling;
- they are expensive to provide - on average almost $20,000 per space if an open car park.  Multi-storey is significantly higher;
- they are contrary to good land use planning - they displace other, more useful commercial, residential and community activities. They also force these activities further away and thus increase urban sprawl;
- they places pressure on car parking in surrounding areas/commercial centres - because there will never be enough car spaces to accommodate all train users, giving people no alternative than to drive to the station means that pressure is inevitably placed on parking in surrounding areas including nearby shops;
- they assume everyone has access to a car - park-and-rides require even regular public transport users to have access to a cars and has nothing to offer the 47% of our population than do not have access/or cannot drive a car; and finally
- they undermine public transport use - one of the biggest problems with the idea of driving to public transport is psychological. Once you've started your journey in a car, you've got little reason not to drive it all the way to your destination; a fact not lost on public transport users themselves. Further they entrench driving for local trips purposes by undermining local public transport use.

Feeder bus services provide a far better option as they have useful functions other than conveying train passengers to railway stations. Half of all our journeys are local trips, with the origin and destination within the same suburb, and when such journeys are made by car they also contribute disproportionately to pollution and congestion. A comprehensive bus network is essential to making public transport attractive for these local trips. But as suburban activity centres and railway stations should be found in the same locations (TOD) the same buses that are useful for local travel are also useful as feeders to stations. Toronto provides an excellent example of feeder services to their local railway stations with over 70% of passengers arriving at their train station by bus or tram.


I do agree with you. Ferny Grove needs frequent feeder bus services to surrounding suburbs and Samford. However due to rural population density beyond Ferny Grove, realistically not everyone can be served by bus. Also, not everyone wants to use a bus, as at the end of the day driving is usually faster! You might not be able to pop into some shops one your way home by bus. Nor can kids be picked up from day care by bus. Even with an attractive feeder bus service, there would still be demand for car parking that is more than the current supply.
Evening peak service to Enoggera* 2007 - 7tph
Evening peak service to Enoggera* 2010 - 4tph
* departures from Central between 16:30 and 17:30.

Offline paulg

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2009, 01:30:44 PM »
My argument for prioritisation of funds is that the Beerburrum-Landsborough duplication is a necessary precursor to the Maroochydore extension, which I believe is a desperately needed piece of infrastructure on the Sunshine Coast. Equally important are the extensions to Coolangatta and Springfield.

I suppose my preference is for provision of new track to completely unserviced areas rather than upgrades to areas that are already well provided for. Sure, it may be worth upgrading the car parking and bus services to Ferny Grove, but surely a simple 10 min frequency service throughout the day would be the best objective for that line, with the existing track configuration.

Cheers


Jon Bryant

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2009, 01:53:28 PM »
For Stephenk, my parent live at samford and I grew up running around the valley when it was Dairy Farms.  They are screaming out for more frequent bus services.  The population out there is now large enough to support frequent services if a campaogn is run to encourage people to catch the bus from a number of strategic pick up points (so we don't simply move the car parking problem form Ferny Grove to Samford Village).  Thus rather than picking up 5-10% of trips it is picking up much higher %. This can include the Samford kids who go to Ferny Grove High or other high schoold serviced by the train.   Zurich has similar schemes to it more rural villages.  The key is capturring a high % of trips.

For paulg, the Government should be able to fund both.  I also think 63 million for 3.2 km of track is outragoeus (well until shown the evidence that it really does costs that much).  Not a cent should be spent on car parking rather the land should be leased for 99 years to a developer or developers.  This might even pay for the line uprade. 

Offline stephenk

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2009, 05:56:41 PM »
Sure, it may be worth upgrading the car parking and bus services to Ferny Grove, but surely a simple 10 min frequency service throughout the day would be the best objective for that line, with the existing track configuration.

paulg, I still don't think you understand the reason for the duplication, nor an understanding of railway operations.

You quote a "simple 10min frequency" which is 6tph. The current peak service is 7tph (or which 5tph run to Ferny Grove). Thus your idea of not duplicating would decrease capacity and increase overcrowding in the peaks. Don't forget that patronage is increasing too! Your plan would also result in minimal operating margin on the single track section. If one train was delayed, it would every following train for a few hours (with knock on effects to other lines).

The Ferny Grove Line also shares tracks with other lines through the core section. This would make a "simple 10min frequency" somewhat difficult to operate, especially when other lines are running differing service patterns.

There is absolutely no question that Keperra to Ferny Grove needs a duplication. You have yet to make a decent point to suggest otherwise.

For Stephenk, my parent live at samford and I grew up running around the valley when it was Dairy Farms.  They are screaming out for more frequent bus services.  The population out there is now large enough to support frequent services if a campaogn is run to encourage people to catch the bus from a number of strategic pick up points (so we don't simply move the car parking problem form Ferny Grove to Samford Village).  Thus rather than picking up 5-10% of trips it is picking up much higher %. This can include the Samford kids who go to Ferny Grove High or other high schoold serviced by the train.   Zurich has similar schemes to it more rural villages.  The key is capturring a high % of trips.

I totally agree that a frequent and attractive bus services should be run from Ferny Grove to Samford (and other surrounding suburbs). However, not everyone will want to, or be able to use the bus for a variety of reasons. The Ferny Grove car park is often full around 7:10am, with people then having to park at stations closer to the city such as Grovely, or even drive into the city. Thus there will still be a need for more car parking at Ferny Grove. 
Evening peak service to Enoggera* 2007 - 7tph
Evening peak service to Enoggera* 2010 - 4tph
* departures from Central between 16:30 and 17:30.

somebody

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2009, 11:42:25 AM »
4) The single track section causes a headache for schedulers, resulting in an unattractive "random" timetable
5) The constraints of the Ferny Grove Line have knock on effects to many other lines, in particular the Beenleigh and Cleveland Lines
Is the "random" timetable caused by the single track, or perhaps the adhoc, disorganised approach to timetabling that applies across our rail network.  Seems that the timetable evolves rather than is planned, for instance with adding a couple of extra services on the Ipswich line.  This is done every 6 months or so, it seems.

Some of the problem is the 8 minute turnaround time.  I will detail this below:

For instance, in the AM peak, why not have FG express (M to BH) departures at :00, :15, :30, :45, and Mitchelton all stopper departures at :12, :27, :42, :57.  Obviously these would need to leave off the outbound platform, but M is an island so it's not too bad so long as it's not a problem for safeworking.  If arrivals are happening at FG at 4tph and using only 1 platform they would need to be at :52, :07, :22, :37 then they would be leaving Mitchelton at :43, :58, :13, :28 which would obviously run into the inbound all stopper waiting on the platform.  If you move the Mitchelton all stopper departures later they then block the trains from FG.  If you use both platforms at FG and extend the dwell times, so arriving at :57, :12, :27, :42, they are then passing Mitchelton at :48, :03, :18, :33; Seems like that would work, although margins aren't very much.

Offline paulg

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2009, 10:02:34 AM »
I don't dispute that the upgrade is a good idea. And I certainly do have a lot to learn about railway operations.

My arguments only relate to the prioritisation of expenditure. Every investment decision has to be made in the context of the alternative uses of that money.

If this project really is the best potential use of $63 million dollars on the network, so be it. I will be interested to see how many extra services are provided as a result.

Cheers, Paul

Jon Bryant

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2009, 10:30:38 AM »
Paulg, so lets not argue amongts oursleves about how to spend the miniscule funding rail is given.  Instead lets campaign for all the funding that is wasted on trying to solve congestion with more roads being redirected to public and activetransport so all the urgent infrastructure is built and maintained properly.

Offline O_128

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2009, 10:39:53 AM »
what i would like to see is a breakdown of why this is costing so much. but then again the varstiy extention is only 4.1km and cost 400 million
"Where else but Queensland?"

Offline paulg

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2009, 10:40:18 AM »
Yes, I agree that the same prioritisation process needs to be applied across all transport modes.

Imagine what could have been done for rail with the ~$4 billion currently being spent on the Ipswich Motorway.

Cheers

Jon Bryant

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2009, 11:02:15 AM »
It is enough to make you cry. If we had we would have seen a reduction in congestion, air pollution, road deaths and trauma, a prettier and safer city, a healthier community and a more bouyant economy.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2009, 12:15:58 PM by Jonno »

Offline O_128

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Re: Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade
« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2009, 12:59:15 PM »
theres always the possibilty in the future that motorways can be converted to rail as they have very gradual curves
"Where else but Queensland?"

 

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