Brisbane Light Rail

[kaykayt]

Found a proposal which the Greens party made years ago... What do you think?
http://archive.qld.greens.org.au/content/front-page-content/Light%20Rail%202010a.pdf

[ozbob]

Found a proposal which the Greens party made years ago... What do you think?
http://archive.qld.greens.org.au/content/front-page-content/Light%20Rail%202010a.pdf

An old proposal.  Not sure if the Greens are still supporting this.

[kaykayt]

Yeah... The concept though

[SurfRail]

LOL at Brisbane Forest Park light rail.  Why not Mt Nebo while we're at it?

[#Metro]

Here is my assessment of the said proposal. Shared sections of track near the CBD counted only once.

CityGlider Line - 11.1 km x 50 = $555 million
Western Line (to Moggill) - 21 km x50 = $1050 million
UQ Line - 5.7 km x40 = $228 million
Eastern Line - 7.23 km x50 = $361.5 million
The Gap Line - 10.6 km x50 = $530 million
Bridgeman Downs Line - 14.2 km x50 = $710 million
Northern Line - 14.3 km x40 = $572 million

BALL PARK TOTAL = $4.0 BILLION MINIMUM COST

If you look at simiar cities in Canada (Calgary, Edmonton) it took many decades to incrementally
build up LRT.

Modelling Assumptions
Assume new LRT = 50 million/km. (Busways would have a similar cost because the ROW is already aquired when
the GC Hwy was built. Assume 40 million/km for busway sections)

There would be major disruptions to some roads leading to the CBD (i.e. Coronation Drive) unless Class A ROW was used, but that comes at much higher cost (looking at 200-300 million km) and requires home demolition. However, assessments can only assist decision making, and there is nothing to say that after reviewing everything, you may decide it is worth it and to proceed.

This large cost, long lead times and disruptions is the reason why the focus moved to improving the current bus network and getting superbuses (150 pax) into Brisbane.

[hU0N]

I think it's a bit of a mixed bag. LRT conversion of the busways would add minimal capacity (+20% at the most) at slightly worse headways, and would add a forced transfer, which is a negative. Not everyone around here agrees with me, but I think LRT conversion of busways is a lot of money for a more or less zero sum in terms of benefits. For me, this rules out the northern, eastern, south-eastern and UQ lines as most likely too low BCR.

Beyond that, the Northwestern line would presumably run in the persevered corridor. Generally running LRT in such Class A corridor is, I think, a bad idea. The strength of LRT is Class B ROW (that is, on road in a dedicated lane). In a dedicated corridor like Trouts Road, either a busway or heavy rail would do the job better, depending on what job you were trying to do. In any case, this corridor is probably earmarked for essential rail track amplification between Petrie and Bowen Hills. So you couldn't do it without a significant investment in an alternate heavy rail corridor.

The Western Line simply isn't necessary. The section between Indooroopilly and the CBD adds absolutely nothing to the network that the existing heavy rail line doesn't already do better, and the existing 444 bus is more than adequate for the undeveloped countryside beyond Kenmore Shops. Dedicated ROW between Kenmore and Indooroopilly is worth looking at, but I am not convinced that building LRT all the way to Redbank via Moggill is the most cost effective way to achieve this dedicated ROW. You might be able to justify a rail spur from Indooroopilly into Kenmore, with a truncated 444 bus running from there, but I actually think the best outcome for the 444 route would be dedicated busway / bus lanes from Kenmore to Indooroopilly, with what happens inbound from there being an open question.

The Gap route is sensible in that the 385 would very much benefit from dedicated right of way particularly around Caxton St. But again I don't think  that the expense of LRT to the Gap is a cost effective way to get these benefits. You could achieve the same thing by merging the 379,380,381 and 385 into a Gap Buz that made use of the existing dedicated lanes on Waterworks Road. Relatively cheap modifications to the Normanby busway portal and you would have a Gap BUZ that ran in dedicated lanes all the way to the CBD, for much less than LRT conversion of the route. As for the rest of the existing 385 route, there are already other better routes serving this area that are more popular.

Which just leaves the blue city glider. Convert that to LRT. By all means. Of course, this is per km, probably the most expensive to build in the whole system, and would probably mean removing cars entirely from Adelaide St, making it the most politically difficult. But it would make sense.

End of the day, I think this is really why LRT has made so little progress in Brisbane. Because while some inner city segments would be better value for money than alternatives (alternatives like suburbs2city for example), these segments would be the most politically difficult to build in isolation. In fact these inner segments have been proposed and shot down numerous times over the years. Meanwhile the suburban segments that might sell the system to voters all have benefits that are too small, or non existent, or easily achievable by a MUCH cheaper alternative, meaning these suburban segments never make it into any final proposal.

So yeah, that's what I think.

[#Metro]

A Carindale to UQ line could work. An LRT depot could be placed at the Carindale end, or retrofit the Carina bus depot. Possibility of operating in Class B row to Carindale, however it is likely some resumptions would be required nontheless. Cost would be around $590 million at minimum sans vehicles.

This is not that unreasonable given the Buranda busway was $465 million for 1km of busway. The proposal would probably take 10-15 years to execute based on past projects.

On the other hand, spending that kind of money, you could saturate the entire city of Brisbane with better buses. Buy European superbuses (150 pax) and put them on.

I think there is a legal hurdle to their importation, but compared to engineers drilling through rocks under rivers, it should be easier to change that.

[#Metro]

Bus of the year 2015
Holds 150 pax.

[Gazza]

Huon, the northern and eastern lines could well be worth going LRT, because they mostly are only half built and don't carry the same volumes as the SE busway.

[James]

I don't get the fetish we have with converting the busways to LRT. Its spending hundreds of thousands of dollars for negligible improvement in capacity. Just use superbuses (150+ pax/bus) and run them to Chermside/Carindale/8MP/A western location* like you would a tram.
The core section (particularly near KGSBS) is incompatible with LRT, that in itself poses a host of problems before you even think about putting LRT on the busway.

*'A western location' refers to my hypothetical NW busway, in order to give the two BRT lines anchors. This would probably just be a BUZ heading to The Gap via Waterworks Road and using T2 lanes the entire way. A 'western busway' should definitely not be something that runs beside the Ipswich railway line!

[Gazza]

What's the fetish with having a counter busway to the NW.....why does the busway system need to be "balanced"?

[James]

What's the fetish with having a counter busway to the NW.....why does the busway system need to be "balanced"?

Because it should operate like a railway line. 8MP - Chermside and Carindale - The Gap. Otherwise you have a bunch of very large buses all terminating in the CBD, requiring a lot of layover area.

[#Metro]

I wouldn't get to excited about any topic in this thread. The Queensland Government can't even get the back door of the bus to open to passengers.   

[James]

I wouldn't get to excited about any topic in this thread. The Queensland Government can't even get the back door of the bus to open to passengers.   

Lol, anything about any transit improvement in Queensland is total and utter foam given the mob we have in George St right now. Even fixing up basic things like late-running or full buses seems like a pipe dream...

[ozbob]

ALP have announced a light rail plan policy for the BCC elections.

See > http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=11894.0

[kaykayt]

Lord Mayor says Labor's Brisbane light rail plan is too expensive
> http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/lord-mayor-says-labors-brisbane-light-rail-plan-is-too-expensive-20160117-gm7r60.html

[SteelPan]

out of touch - out of time old time, expensive proposal - Brisbane needs a underground metro - not another "Cinderella city" proposal!

[SurfRail]

For inner-city work, trams are in my view generally much better for local distribution - no lengthy ascents or descents.

Questionable whether it will work properly in Brisbane where the demand is probably sufficient to bypass it.  The system works on the Gold Coast because patronage on the Gold Coast is a slow-burn affair with consistent travel patterns throughout the day and no massive peaks and trough, and the system caters to that properly.  For Brisbane, you will need something a lot more intensive to handle peak than the 7-8 minute headways G:Link offers.

[verbatim9]

They will need feeder light rail down past Cleveland way. A bi directional service running from Cleveland to Redland Bay across to Logan connecting both ends to heavy rail.

[verbatim9]

out of touch - out of time old time, expensive proposal - Brisbane needs a underground metro - not another "Cinderella city" proposal!

This is to go with Oz Bob's Centenary HI speed LRT option, I dont agree with duplicating down through Toowong as there is already a train line.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/view?hl=en&authuser=0&mid=z8QZu4tMs0Is.kZVgLrn8eu7w

[#Metro]

Centenary Rapid LRT concept (note CONCEPT only).
https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?hl=en_US&app=mp&mid=zo2O13ByWclc.kBsMmFMrRC0Y

Some duplication between Indooroopilly and CBD there. However, 400 CentenaryGlider also runs along Coronation Drive to serve the offices and office workers. Also more efficient than current arrangements with BCC buses. Chasely St Auchenflower is a very steep hill (I have personally walked this), so access to Auchenflower station by walk is not as easy as it seems from a map.

I will just note that there is an option to send it via West End if you want also.

[verbatim9]

LRT via UQ West End would be a better option. Looks good at last a  proper transport alternative for Bellbowrie Moggill as well as for Centenary Residents

[#Metro]

LRT via UQ West End would be a better option. Looks good at last a  proper transport alternative for Bellbowrie Moggill as well as for Centenary Residents

I would encourage everyone to Remix!

[verbatim9]

How long in duration would it take to ride the whole route from Bellbowrie 40-45mins? Usually 2-3 mins between stations 20-30 secs to unload and load.

[#Metro]

How long in duration would it take to ride the whole route from Bellbowrie 40-45mins? Usually 2-3 mins between stations 20-30 secs to unload and load.

It would depend on the level of priority given, and the stop spacing. You would be looking at stations at least 1km apart, and perhaps 800m in the section Toowong-CBD.

At least 40 minutes is my guess. The main advantage is most buses would no longer run to the CBD from the West. It would be very much simpler. And this is one area where the capacity of LRT would make it competitive.

There is an option to do the Moggil bridge section as a Green Bridge - LRT, bikes and pedestrians. That would lead to extremely high PT usage from Moggill residents due to car access being the long way.

[hU0N]

How long in duration would it take to ride the whole route from Bellbowrie 40-45mins? Usually 2-3 mins between stations 20-30 secs to unload and load.

It would depend on the level of priority given, and the stop spacing. You would be looking at stations at least 1km apart, and perhaps 800m in the section Toowong-CBD.

At least 40 minutes is my guess. The main advantage is most buses would no longer run to the CBD from the West. It would be very much simpler. And this is one area where the capacity of LRT would make it competitive.

There is an option to do the Moggil bridge section as a Green Bridge - LRT, bikes and pedestrians. That would lead to extremely high PT usage from Moggill residents due to car access being the long way.

Not knocking it, but LRT capacities are broadly similar to buses, providing you give it the same level of priority..

Never forget that Brisbane's trams were primarily removed because, with a council unwilling to give PT any priority, buses could move more people more quickly.

[#Metro]

Not knocking it, but LRT capacities are broadly similar to buses, providing you give it the same level of priority..

Never forget that Brisbane's trams were primarily removed because, with a council unwilling to give PT any priority, buses could move more people more quickly.

You are correct, however we must also remember that the Gold Coast Light Rail was chosen as Light Rail because of the constrained corridor and that to increase capacity would have required a Class A priority level, which would be infeasible at that location. A similar argument could be made for LRT along Coronation Drive. The capacity of LRT in Class B is higher than BRT, and would require less drivers (lower operational costs).

1 LRT = 2 Superbuses.

The Centenary suburbs can be served by either superbus or LRT. Superbus would require no heavy infrastructure. LRT would have higher capacity in class B priority scenario along Coronation Drive. Or, if you want to build busway style infrastructure, you could build busway to Indooroopilly and then feed into the Heavy rail at Indooroopilly.

There are many options, all I am pointing out is that LRT is a viable option, and that future capacity in that corridor that LRT has might be useful, whereas in other parts of the city, might not be necessary.

It all depends on the merits of the individual project and location. I think the current proposal by Red Team (West End - Newstead) is unviable and they are giving a free kick to Blue Team if they think they are going to get anywhere with it just because it is tram.

Class B ROW

LRT every 2 mins (300 pax) = 9000 pphd
Superbus every 2 mins (150 pax) = 4500 pphd

[hU0N]

^^ I absolutely agree with that.

[verbatim9]

The beauty with LRT is that you can also allow a couple of bikes per tram

[aldonius]

Bikes on transit don't scale. Bike parking at stations is good, though!

Especially in the western suburbs, if we want to grow cycling we can start by linking up the bikeway through Toowong.