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Author Topic: Proposal: Busway to Subway  (Read 15033 times)

Offline #Metro

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Proposal: Busway to Subway
« on: September 20, 2013, 08:24:08 AM »
Busway to Subway conversion proposal

The Campbell River Rail (CRR) proposal has a busway combined with a train tunnel.
I propose that there be no bus tunnel, but instead there be a vancouver skytrain metro tunnel and a standard train tunnel. I have shown only the skytrain section in this map.

The cost would only be marginally higher - add vehicles, wires and track, as the bulk of the cost would be to get the tunnel in the first place. This proposal would be the first to start on getting the great majority of buses out of the CBD completely. The busway to subway conversion would aim at a Vancouver style network for Brisbane, with an automatic high capacity rail spine fed by high frequency BUZ services in the suburbs.

Cross River Rail trains would continue to Roma Street (Not shown).
In this proposal, most buses would be terminated at Wooloongabba where passengers would then enter the subway system. Some buses would continue to the CBD in the interim, until the subway was extended on the South East Busway to 8 Mile Plains.

STAGE 1


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Offline Gazza

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2013, 08:40:05 AM »
Where is the depot /maintenance facility?

Offline #Metro

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2013, 08:40:19 AM »
STAGE 2

In stage 2, all buses would be removed from the South East Busway. The stations Cultural centre, South Bank, Mater Hill and Wooloongabba would remain as busway stations.

New busway mass interchanges would be established at Greenslopes and at Griffith University. Some future scope for a branch line through Sunnybank for the subway system would be made in light of the high number of buses on the mains road corridor. The conversion of the busway on this section would be very simple - lay track on the busway surface.

A new subway station would be established below the current Buranda busway station. This would allow buses from UQ to flow through to the Eastern busway in an East-West fashion and allow transfer to the subway. No buses from the Boggo Road busway / Eastern Busway would continue to the CBD. Instead they would all run UQ --- Carindale.

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Offline #Metro

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2013, 08:47:21 AM »
Buranda Station / Eastern busway close up

The subway alignment would dive into a tunnel underneath Buranda busway station to emerge out the other side. This would allow buses from the Eastern busway to stop at the current busway station at Buranda and then continue to Boggo Road/PA Hospital and UQ.

Red line = subway
Blue line = partial view of current Eastern Busway alignment.

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Offline #Metro

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2013, 08:55:18 AM »
Griffith University Close Up

The bus viaduct would be extended to a new Busway-Subway interchange at Griffith University (blue line). Piles would be driven to form a raised platform interchange. Alternatively the tennis courts could be re-located. Provision should be made for a branch line along Mains Road if desired. ALL MAINS ROAD BUSES WOULD BE TERMINATED AT GRIFFITH UNI SUBWAY.

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2013, 09:14:25 AM »
Mmmm foam....  :fo: :fo: :fo:

Offline Gazza

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2013, 09:18:50 AM »
In the CBD stage 1, where do the maintenance facilities and depot go?

Offline Mr X

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2013, 11:07:32 AM »
Tunnel under Buranda? That would be very very deep and expensive I would think?
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Offline James

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2013, 02:44:56 PM »
It seems RBoT's shipment of foam for the week has arrived.



In all honesty, while this idea is all nice and fuzzy in theory, especially in the short-term, it is a shocker.

What this plan is asking for is to get over 5000 pax/hr (assuming there are 60bph down Mains Rd, each carrying 80 pax) to transfer at Griffith Uni. Do you know the chaos that this is going to cause? Buranda is another one - imagine the huge amounts of pax changing there. It would be beyond phenomenal. How will the bus platforms cope? Why are we forcing a change between high demand corridors and UQ - even though the demand exists, is high, and is acknowledged to be very strong?

Secondly: why do we need light rail/subway? Couldn't we simply use bi-artic buses? This allows the busway to act more like a metro, yet still allows the direct-seat trip for passengers from the major BUZ routes (130, 140, 150, 180, 200 etc.).

As I have stated, there should be no bus tunnel. Long term, we should have the Eastern Busway linking with Busway X (North-West busway is my submission) and the Northern Busway linking with the SE Busway with bi-artics. This allows for the core spine to remain, yet buses can still join in the inner sections. UQ Lakes buses will be added as necessary and will be bi-artics too.

A bus tunnel is not necessary if we manage the network correctly. BCC should not be allowed to have a bus tunnel. They should be forced to clean up the bus network. If they refuse, suck it up. The bus tunnel plan is like an obese person "fixing" their weight problem by having their fat cut off through surgery. It doesn't solve anything.
Is it really that hard to run frequent, reliable public transport?

Offline #Metro

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2013, 06:20:47 PM »
Makes you wonder how Toronto copes with all that transferring given that 98% of buses go to train stations and the city is the size of Melbourne... Then there's Vancouver and oh, Ottawa which is replacing the core section of their busway with a tunnel in the CBD and putting metro style light rail in there and getting the buses to terminate at busway stations.

Ottawa is doing almost exactly what I am proposing. We based our busway on theirs ----> http://www.ottawalightrail.ca/#&panel1-1

Big Q effect showing??

“New ideas pass through three periods: 1) It can’t be done. 2) It probably can be done, but it’s not worth doing. 3) I knew it was a good idea all along!” — Sir Arthur C. Clarke
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 06:26:09 PM by Lapdog »
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2013, 06:24:10 PM »
Hi Gazza, you raise a valid point. Any thoughts on your side on where a good place would be to put a depot?
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2013, 06:27:15 PM »
You know because it's just IMPOSSIBLE:



There's no 'Q' in 'Ottawa'. More evidence for the Big Q effect. Must be daylight savings or something...

« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 06:32:59 PM by Lapdog »
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2013, 06:35:53 PM »
Ottawa Busway will feed directly into a Light Rail Metro. A tunnel through the CBD like Brisbane.


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Offline Otto

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2013, 06:39:50 PM »
Hi Gazza, you raise a valid point. Any thoughts on your side on where a good place would be to put a depot?
At Woolloongabba.
The Go Print and other Govt offices on the block are meant to be demolished to make way for Hi Rise Urban village development. As part of it, they could excavate the Go Print site to build a tram depot which would ultimately be underground given that the depot has to be at the same level as the current busway. 
The Urban Village can then be built over the top so there will be no land area lost to the development.

Just a thought.

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Offline #Metro

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2013, 06:40:50 PM »
^ That's a good idea. I also thought 8 Mile Plains would be good as well.
I will also remind everyone that BCC and Campbell Newman wanted metro system in Brisbane so they might support it.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/newmans-metro-plan-blasted-20110318-1c0jo.html
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2013, 06:58:04 PM »
The Big Q effect. Observed only in Queensland.

CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T
CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T
CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T
CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T
CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T

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Offline Gazza

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2013, 07:19:29 PM »
I still think a short little metro from the Gabba to the Valley is pretty foamy though and doesn't really add a meaningful level of efficiency.

I wouldn't mind a bus loop as being the one long term solution for the areas unable to be feederised, but it shouldn't happen till bus routes are rationalised, and the BNE underground is built.

Not at all keen on the bus tunnel to the valley though.

STB

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2013, 07:26:43 PM »
The Big Q effect. Observed only in Queensland.

CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T
CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T
CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T
CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T
CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T CAN'T



Only in Lapdog's world (Browns Plains railway crashing through dozens of homes and tunnelling, from a few years ago...anyone?).

We're saying you are being foamy for good reason.  Let it go.

Offline #Metro

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2013, 07:31:25 PM »
Quote
I still think a short little metro from the Gabba to the Valley is pretty foamy though and doesn't really add a meaningful level of efficiency.

Well it has to start somewhere. When the busway first opened it was in stages from Wooloongabba to the CBD. This was even shorter than this proposal! There are ~ 50 different bus routes that ply City - Valley at the moment. There is a fair bit of surface street congestion in the CBD from Adelaide street to the Valley at times. Bus lanes help, but underground would be ideal.

Quote
Only in Lapdog's world (Browns Plains railway crashing through dozens of homes and tunnelling, from a few years ago...anyone?).

Are the 369, route 109 running on the busway (not via Annerly Road), merger of 66 + 109, route 535 (Richlands - Springfield Rail Rocket bus), BUZ 196, Trouts Road Rail,  foam too? Oh that's right, TransLink has implemented or published reports with those "crazy" ideas...

Is the Ottawa Light Metro a foam idea too? Why are they building it then? Why are they converting their busway?

If you don't like the idea and don't want to contribute to it, fine. I also note a whole heap of businesses and homes were demolished when the Eastern busway was put in.
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2013, 07:40:21 PM »
Quote
Secondly: why do we need light rail/subway? Couldn't we simply use bi-artic buses? This allows the busway to act more like a metro, yet still allows the direct-seat trip for passengers from the major BUZ routes (130, 140, 150, 180, 200 etc.).

Because there are no automatic buses on the market yet. Light metro (Skytain) is automatic and with no staff on board you can send buses instead to the suburbs where you can get enormous BUZ upgrades. You avoid duplication and greatly reduce staff costs and therefore subsidies as well plus the extra frequency from bus re-allocation to the suburbs will stimulate passengers.

This reduction in operational cost is important in light of the high subsidies and fares we pay. It is the method Toronto uses to achieve high efficiency.

Edit: Clarity
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 07:50:48 PM by Lapdog »
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Offline Gazza

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2013, 07:42:20 PM »
Quote
When the busway first opened it was in stages from Wooloongabba to the CBD. This was even shorter than this proposal!
Bit of a half truth LD. I was all done as the one project, they just got the Gabba section opened 6 months early due to the Olympic football tournament.

A short busway in itself can still have a bit of utility in terms of avoiding traffic lights. A short metro line isn't really that useful at all.


You could probably get some efficiency if the whole SEB was light metro, but theres no real point unless you can do it as the one project. An interchange at the gabba and a pointless little one or two station trip on a driverless train would have bugger all difference in terms of running costs.

« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 07:48:21 PM by Gazza »

Offline #Metro

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2013, 07:48:26 PM »
Quote
You could probably get some efficiency if the whole SEB was light metro, but theres no real point unless you can do it as the one project. An interchange at the gabba and a pointless little one or two station trip on a driverless train would have bugger all difference in terms of running costs.

I think it has to be staged simply because the construction of a tunnel from the CBD to Wooloongabba that is a combined Heavy Rail/Subway (or whatever mode) will impose that restraint. The busway was opened in sections (think about the extensions, Nth, INB, East, Boggo and extension to Springwood), no reason why it can't be shut down in sections as well.
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Offline Gazza

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2013, 07:54:57 PM »
Also, you are locked into building an expensive depot below grade at Wooloongabba (Pretty much the only place it could go).

Offline #Metro

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2013, 07:57:20 PM »
Engineers are pretty creative. The depot would not need to be big as the line is short and so few vehicles would be used. It could be a temporary thing (and the site could be built with this in mind) until the project extended to 8 Mile Plains. You could build the control centre at 8 MP and have the vehicles housed at W'Gabba in the interim time frame. There are conduits running the length of the busway inside the concrete barriers so the control centre can be located remotely, separately from the vehicles, for a time.

Also, I remember attending a Cross River Rail community event where we got to question the minister (ALP at the time) and the project manager. I forget the name of the project manager, but it was in the Irish club on Elizabeth Street and Ozbob was in attendance.  I did question him (the project manager) about busway capacity (at the time I asked if it would be converted to LRT) and it was him who suggested that light metro a la Vancouver....

« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 08:06:24 PM by Lapdog »
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Offline James

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2013, 08:19:03 PM »
Well it has to start somewhere. When the busway first opened it was in stages from Wooloongabba to the CBD. This was even shorter than this proposal! There are ~ 50 different bus routes that ply City - Valley at the moment. There is a fair bit of surface street congestion in the CBD from Adelaide street to the Valley at times. Bus lanes help, but underground would be ideal.

And we should remember that a lot of those buses terminating in the Valley from the southside carry air, and the ones going to the north are mostly air parcels. Guess what should happen to a lot of the City-Valley buses? CHOP CHOP CHOP! Also, as stated by Gazza, the sole reason for opening the busway early was to cater for the matches at the Gabba.

Are the 369, route 109 running on the busway (not via Annerly Road), merger of 66 + 109, route 535 (Richlands - Springfield Rail Rocket bus), BUZ 196, Trouts Road Rail,  foam too? Oh that's right, TransLink has implemented or published reports with those "crazy" ideas...

Is the Ottawa Light Metro a foam idea too? Why are they building it then? Why are they converting their busway?

If you don't like the idea and don't want to contribute to it, fine. I also note a whole heap of businesses and homes were demolished when the Eastern busway was put in.

109 running via the busway was a common-sense move, as is 66 + 109. None of those other ideas you post are truly foam ideas that you alone have supported. On this supposed metro, even people who usually support you (myself, for example) are taking the axe to this idea. It is sort of like if I supported 314 extension to Parliament. Just because that idea is stupid, doesn't mean my other ideas are stupid.

Because there are no automatic buses on the market yet. Light metro (Skytain) is automatic and with no staff on board you can send buses instead to the suburbs where you can get enormous BUZ upgrades. You avoid duplication and greatly reduce staff costs and therefore subsidies as well plus the extra frequency from bus re-allocation to the suburbs will stimulate passengers.

This reduction in operational cost is important in light of the high subsidies and fares we pay. It is the method Toronto uses to achieve high efficiency.

But should we build a light metro, though? Is the cost of impacting a transfer on people who already have BUZ frequencies so close to the CBD reason enough to do this? Is it really a good idea to near-terminate BUZes like a 174/175 combo, 180 and even routes like the 200/222 - at Buranda, a station less than 4km from Brisbane's CBD? Furthermore, you are about to make people who currently have a direct seat aboard the 139 do a double change. People along the Mains Rd corridor a single change - a corridor which has been slated for heavy rail.

If there was the option to have a junction there (grade separation would not be a huge issue IMO) which allowed metro vehicles to flow Carindale - City, 8MP - UQ and City - UQ, I may support this. But in its current form, this is an awful idea.

Only in Lapdog's world (Browns Plains railway crashing through dozens of homes and tunnelling, from a few years ago...anyone?).

We're saying you are being foamy for good reason.  Let it go.

Seconded. At least the Browns Plains railway had a very decent case - and in fact, it is probably something which should be done. This just makes no sense and seems to be focussed on impacting transfers for the hell of it.
Is it really that hard to run frequent, reliable public transport?

Offline #Metro

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2013, 08:24:18 PM »
Quote
But should we build a light metro, though? Is the cost of impacting a transfer on people who already have BUZ frequencies so close to the CBD reason enough to do this? Is it really a good idea to near-terminate BUZes like a 174/175 combo, 180 and even routes like the 200/222 - at Buranda, a station less than 4km from Brisbane's CBD? Furthermore, you are about to make people who currently have a direct seat aboard the 139 do a double change. People along the Mains Rd corridor a single change - a corridor which has been slated for heavy rail.

People do this in Melbourne all the time. When I had to pay a visit to Royal Melbourne Hospital I had to get a bus to the train station, take a train to the CBD and then transfer (shock horror) on to a packed tram. This is what big cities do. This is what Melbourne does because the city is JUST TOO BIG for direct everywhere. This is what Toronto does day in day out with orders of magnitude more people. The TTC carries enormous volumes far in excess of what Brisbane carries in exactly this way- Terminate and Transfer.
You know what, they are even building Light Rail to the subway station because this approach has been so successful. And yet here we are having a discussion about getting a bus to stop at a metro station. Really?


« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 08:31:30 PM by Lapdog »
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2013, 08:29:43 PM »
Light Rail to the subway station. First off the block is the Eglinton Crosstown LRT. They will have to interchange.



Further north there is Bus Rapid Transit feeding into the TTC subway stations. They are making this into Class B row exclusive at grade busways. They will have to interchange.



I think the idea that it can't be done can be soundly refuted based on these real world examples.
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2013, 08:35:46 PM »
Toronto feeder bus services carry huge volumes of pax into the rail network daily.

Bus 32 Eglinton west - almost 50 000 trips per day on the street level in mixed traffic. Given that the SEB carries 150 000 trips per day in Class A exclusive ROW, I hope that puts this "transfer issue" into perspective.

http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Operating_Statistics/2012.jsp
http://ttc.ca/Routes/32/RouteDescription.jsp?tabName=route
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Offline Gazza

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2013, 09:03:47 PM »
Quote
People do this in Melbourne all the time. When I had to pay a visit to Royal Melbourne Hospital I had to get a bus to the train station, take a train to the CBD and then transfer (shock horror) on to a packed tram. This is what big cities do. This is what Melbourne does because the city is JUST TOO BIG for direct everywhere.
Yeah but it's not like the DART buses from Doncaster terminate at Victoria Park station, do they?

Look, I'm all for terminating buses at logical locations like Indooroopilly, Chermside etc and cutting a route in half.
But going 90% of the way into the CBD and then terminating at Wooloongabba isn't actually a proper improvement...It'd be like terminating the 199 at Fortitude Valley station and telling people to take the train to the CBD.

You can post all these examples from Canada, but you've yet to give an example of a route that is planned to finish 90% of the way there.

Offline #Metro

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2013, 12:35:08 AM »
Quote
But going 90% of the way into the CBD and then terminating at Wooloongabba isn't actually a proper improvement...It'd be like terminating the 199 at Fortitude Valley station and telling people to take the train to the CBD.

If the frequency is very high (~5 minutes), and the interchange good, it is not an issue IMHO. If someone lives in Wooloongabba and wants to go to West End, should there be a direct bus because it is close to the CBD and transferring cannot be allowed so close to the CBD?

Precedents in both Toronto and Melbourne. Indeed Toronto's East-West Bloor Danforth subway forces people to transfer at Bloor-Yonge or Spadina subway stations to the Yonge-University-Spadina lines if they want to go further downtown.

Toronto












Melbourne
http://ptv.vic.gov.au/assets/Maps/Routes/PDFs/1657_Bus401.pdf
http://ptv.vic.gov.au/assets/Maps/Routes/PDFs/5607_Bus504.pdf
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Offline James

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2013, 06:02:38 PM »
People do this in Melbourne all the time. When I had to pay a visit to Royal Melbourne Hospital I had to get a bus to the train station, take a train to the CBD and then transfer (shock horror) on to a packed tram. This is what big cities do. This is what Melbourne does because the city is JUST TOO BIG for direct everywhere. This is what Toronto does day in day out with orders of magnitude more people. The TTC carries enormous volumes far in excess of what Brisbane carries in exactly this way- Terminate and Transfer.
You know what, they are even building Light Rail to the subway station because this approach has been so successful. And yet here we are having a discussion about getting a bus to stop at a metro station. Really?

Lapdog, I am not advocating for direct services everywhere. What works in Melbourne and Toronto may not work in Brisbane.

At the risk of sounding like I support BCC - Brisbane is a RADIAL city with a few corridors that go into the CBD, with the CBD itself constrained on two sides by a river. It is very difficult for us to operate our bus/LRT network as a grid because especially the inner section - the CBD - where people want to go - is blocked by a big body of water.

Secondly, near-termination is a very unpopular thing to do, regardless on which end it is done. Furthermore, these people already have high-frequency service. This is not a case of BUZ 100 wasting money, or the 411 being turned into a feeder to get its frequency up to a BUZ standard - this is forcing people to transfer when they otherwise should not be so they can be put on a foamy driverless train.

Near-termination also does not save many resources. Especially from somewhere like Wooloongabba, where the buses are travelling only 2.5km more to get to the CBD. 130/140/150 have a case for GU termination, but as I've stated before, pax from those buses should be fed into a railway line.

Finally, with the tram point - Inner City Loop, Spring Hill Loop and 196/199 all fulfil this purpose of shuttling pax through the CBD. I do agree that we need to stop firing rockets from all over the CBD. But a subway isn't required for that.

At this point in time all you've shown me is that you are very good at spamming the forum with images from other transit systems which show their buses actually connect to train/light rail systems. Yes, we should feed low-patronage routes into the busway. But not high-patronage routes.
Is it really that hard to run frequent, reliable public transport?

Offline #Metro

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2013, 06:15:20 PM »
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Lapdog, I am not advocating for direct services everywhere. What works in Melbourne and Toronto may not work in Brisbane.

You're right. This is the Big Q effect! Queensland starts with Q. Therefore nothing that works anywhere else in the world will work here. Q.E.D.
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At the risk of sounding like I support BCC - Brisbane is a RADIAL city with a few corridors that go into the CBD, with the CBD itself constrained on two sides by a river. It is very difficult for us to operate our bus/LRT network as a grid because especially the inner section - the CBD - where people want to go - is blocked by a big body of water.

River crossings favour public transport over cars. Grids can also work for Gridless cities ---> http://www.humantransit.org/2010/03/sydney-grid-networks-for-gridless-cities.html

Anyway, it is not principally about a "grid". It is about getting buses out of the CBD and re-allocating them to the suburbs. And efficiency. And using that efficiency to flood the suburbs with more BUZ routes from the savings in operational costs made.

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Secondly, near-termination is a very unpopular thing to do, regardless on which end it is done. Furthermore, these people already have high-frequency service. This is not a case of BUZ 100 wasting money, or the 411 being turned into a feeder to get its frequency up to a BUZ standard - this is forcing people to transfer when they otherwise should not be so they can be put on a foamy driverless train.

So should there be a direct bus from West End to Wooloongabba, Ashgrove, RBWH, Kangaroo Pt etc to prevent transfers? How do you explain Toronto's route 7 bus?

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Near-termination also does not save many resources. Especially from somewhere like Wooloongabba, where the buses are travelling only 2.5km more to get to the CBD. 130/140/150 have a case for GU termination, but as I've stated before, pax from those buses should be fed into a railway line.

Perhaps. Obviously the CityGlider from West End to Newstead would have to continue through the CBD, but many can be terminated. Anyway, this is a fine point that I'm sure the planners will deal with as they have before.

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Finally, with the tram point - Inner City Loop, Spring Hill Loop and 196/199 all fulfil this purpose of shuttling pax through the CBD. I do agree that we need to stop firing rockets from all over the CBD. But a subway isn't required for that.

If you don't like a subway, fine. What's your justification for a bus tunnel to the CBD then?

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At this point in time all you've shown me is that you are very good at spamming the forum with images from other transit systems which show their buses actually connect to train/light rail systems. Yes, we should feed low-patronage routes into the busway. But not high-patronage routes.

But not high patronage routes? How do you explain Toronto's construction of the Eglinton East-West LRT and other LRT projects which sole purpose is to feed passengers into the subway? How do you explain BRT feeding into Toronto's subway from the edge of the city? How do you explain the Bus 32 Eglinton west - almost 50 000 trips per day on the street level in mixed traffic feeding into a subway station? Individual feeder buses in Brisbane's barely reach anywhere near this kind of high patronage. And it can't be done here? Why not?

High patronage routes should be fed into the busway. Melbourne does it with the high frequency (every 4 minutes) Melbourne Uni/Hospitals bus which leaves from North Melbourne Station. Toronto does it with the Spadina subway streetcar and also many of its buses carry orders of magnitude more passengers than buses in Brisbane and these do terminate at subway stations. For example, the Bus 32 Eglinton west - almost 50 000 trips per day on the street level in mixed traffic.
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2013, 06:24:47 PM »
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Yes, we should feed low-patronage routes into the busway. But not high-patronage routes.

510 Spadina (streetcar) … 43,800 trips per day. Feeds directly into Spadina Subway station and terminates there.
I'm not aware of any individual brisbane bus route which carry this volume. This is about 11-12 million trips per year.
I think Brisbane's busiest bus route would be 4-5 million per year max. So not even close.

http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Operating_Statistics/2012.jsp



The TTC carries so many people this way. Terminate and transfer.
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In 2012, the TTC set an all-time record of 514 million rides, surpassing 2011’s record ridership total of 500.2 million.
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2013, 06:36:28 PM »
Let's look at the TTC's Jane 35 bus.
It feeds Jane Subway station on the Bloor-Danforth line.

45,700 trips per day x 52 days x 5 days per week = ~ 12 million passengers per year by this one bus.
http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Operating_Statistics/2012.jsp

There are a number of other buses feeding this subway station as well.

Bus 26 DUPONT
Bus 35 JANE
Bus 55 WARREN PARK
Bus 312 ST CLAIR


If we look at the yearly patronage on some of Brisbane's busiest buses (2009 figures, BT - probably still valid as patronage has flatlined since
2009)

3.4                                                          BUZ 199
2.5                                                          BUZ 150
2.4                                                          BUZ 130
2.0                                                          BUZ 111

-----
10.3 million pax per year.

So Brisbane's top 4 buses COMBINED can't even match this ONE bus that is dumping all its passengers into a single subway station. And since the Toronto example is for one bus and there are two other buses and a streetcar that also feed Jane station the idea that high volume buses should not feed into a Busway converted to a subway just doesn't seem to stand up to international proof.

« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 06:43:28 PM by Lapdog »
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Offline SurfRail

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2013, 08:15:29 PM »
My take is this:  you can't stage any such project like this.  You would need to build from the CBD to 8MP in one hit.  Build the underground stretch first, then provide a suite of replacement bus services and transit lanes on the M3 until the whole thing could be switched on.  There is vanishingly little advantage to terminating buses at the Gabba.

I DO support the idea of transferring at Griffith Uni.  There is no reason why this can't be managed properly.
Ride the G:

Offline techblitz

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2013, 10:25:25 PM »
Oh no not the LD Toronto spam thing again  :fp:
Back at ya with a demographics spam..

Toronto

greater metro population 6.05 million (2011)  >>>>>  area 7,124 km² >>>>>  density 850/km2
inner metro 2.75 million  (jul 2012)  >>>>> area 630 km²  >>> density 4,149/km2

Inner Toronto currently has nearly 3 times the population of brisbane yet half the size and 6 times the population density!

Good ol Brisbane

city of Brisbane pop 2011 1.08 million (2013 est 1.14?)    area  >>>>>>> 1,367 km2 >>> density 769.9/km2

greater statistical Brisbane 2.2 million (2012)  >>>>> area 5,949.9 km2  >>>> density  346.0/km2   :-r
 

LD im rather bewildered why you're even bothering to prove the point that Toronto routes are busier than Brisbane routes...

Offline Gazza

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2013, 10:43:52 PM »
LD, if you are going to continue this line of argument it'd pay to look at the actual locations of the Subway stations in question.

Quote
Let's look at the TTC's Jane 35 bus.
It feeds Jane Subway station on the Bloor-Danforth line.
Jane station is a good 8km from Downtown Toronto, so no problem getting people to change there, not the same as going 90% of the way into the CBD.

STB

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2013, 10:53:40 PM »
Lapdog, if you like it so much, why don't you go and live over there?

Offline verbatim9

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2013, 12:37:10 AM »
Getting back to the proposed underground busway on the BCC City Centre Master Plan states an underground tunnel from Cultural centre to relieve traffic congestion as well as the original CRR. http://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/planning-building/planning-guidelines-and-tools/city-centre-master-plan/index.htm Don't know what information to go on these days everything seems to be up in the air with this current council and government no direction just talk and no start dates!?

Offline #Metro

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Re: Proposal: Busway to Subway
« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2013, 02:39:42 AM »
If we are going to (a) construct a Cross River Rail tunnel from Wooloongabba with QR trains and something else (busway?) AND tunnel in the central business district the Lord Mayor's City to Suburbs bus link then I think we ought to question whether we could simply use that to start the construction of a subway system rather than just more buses.

There is a precedent for this. Ottawa, on which Brisbane's busways were modelled on is in the process of converting their transitway to metro style light rail and a tunnel through the CBD. It is similar to Brisbane in this respect and hence why it has a busway solution and also why they are converting the core section.

Vancouver skytrain is a proven technology. It's automation will allow rail to take over the busway core and therefore stop most buses from reaching the Brisbane CBD. Being fully automatic with no staff on board, there would be huge operational savings. The buses could then be used to improve bus frequency in the suburbs where they are needed. It must be remembered that the busway was very close to being Light Rail and indeed was built to LRT specifications as a contingency for conversion in the future. Hence the idea that rail cannot serve the busway core for whatever reason (density, city shape etc) should be rejected outright.

Furthermore, although I take the point about the density of Toronto and Brisbane being different, there isn't really much standing in the way of implementing their network planning style (a connected network rather than a direct service network) in Brisbane if the busway were to be converted to automatic rail. The busway already pushes the lower bound of metro systems in the AM peak and so there is no issue there about density etc. The passenger numbers are there already to justify conversion, and future growth will only strengthen this proposition further. Disregarding the fact that Brisbane's density number is very skewed due to large amounts of bushland, Griffith University, Mt Gravatt, Mt Coo-tha, Pinjarra hills, rocklea floodplain etc and that the ABS definition of urbanised area is lower than what is used almost everywhere else, the idea that the density is not enough should be rejected given that there is plenty of passengers on it in the AM peak to justify a subway upgrade and terminate and transfer schemes have been implemented in Perth on the rail network there with good effect and that Perth is very similar in density and city demographics to Brisbane.

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LD im rather bewildered why you're even bothering to prove the point that Toronto routes are busier than Brisbane routes...
The purpose was to demonstrate that terminating Mains Road buses at Griffith University and performing interchange is feasable. I hope this clarified things for you.

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Jane station is a good 8km from Downtown Toronto, so no problem getting people to change there, not the same as going 90% of the way into the CBD.

Indeed Gazza, but that particular post had nothing to do with nearside termination but was rather to demonstrate that  terminating Mains Road buses at Griffith University and performing interchange is feasible. I hope this clarified things for you. I'm not at all worried about how close is too close to use terminate and transfer. That's a job that can safely be left with the planners at TransLink to figure out. My view is empirical - try it and if people use it, then leave it.


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Lapdog, if you like it so much, why don't you go and live over there?


If you hate the idea, fine. Nobody is forcing you to read this thread. You know what the content is going to be like and if you don't like this discussion don't read it.




« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 02:48:42 AM by Lapdog »
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