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Author Topic: Brisbane Underground Bus Oneway Tunnel ???  (Read 6077 times)

Offline Mr X

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Brisbane Underground Bus Oneway Tunnel ???
« on: September 19, 2013, 01:18:16 PM »
whut... this looks like the stupidest and biggest waste of money ever.  :conf buses go round and round and round this loop and then go where..?  :bu

Underground bus loop planned for Brisbane CBD

Quote
Brisbane City Hall is set to unveil plans for a new underground bus loop in the CBD in a bid to ease city traffic congestion and reduce travel times.
Lord Mayor Graham Quirk will release plans on Thursday afternoon for a $260 million underground bus loop connecting the existing Queen Street and King George Square busway stations.
There will also be new stations under George and Adelaide streets.
Cr Quirk said Premier Campbell Newman's recent announcement that the state government was investigating a Brisbane underground combined rail and bus tunnel was a tremendous opportunity to address the major congestion problems that face both the city’s rail and bus public transport systems.
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"The Premier’s innovative proposal is very exciting and addresses the capacity issues for both the city’s bus and rail networks," he said.
"The CBD and adjacent suburbs will need to accommodate an additional 130,000 workers in the next 20 years and we need to improve public transport capacity to accommodate this growth by improving the network to reduce travel times."
The proposals are part of council’s pre-feasibility study into the Suburbs 2 City Buslink project that investigated a dedicated busway link from Adelaide Street to South Brisbane and a tunnel under Adelaide Street to Fortitude Valley at an estimated cost of $2.2 billion.
"The State Department of Transport and Main Roads has been provided with the prefeasibility report and supporting information which is assisting them with their own prefeasibility into the Brisbane underground rail and bus connection," Cr Quirk said.
The mayor said Mr Newman's Brisbane Underground proposal would complement council plans for a CBD bus loop to connect and expand existing busway stations at an estimated cost of $260 million.
"In the coming years, busways, bus stations and CBD streets will reach capacity causing traffic congestion, unreliable travel times and safety issues," he said.
"Moving buses underground is a key part of the draft city centre master plan that I released this week and a great way to bring more buses into the CBD without filling up city streets.
“A one-way, underground bus loop would take buses off city streets, give drivers a simple, congestion-free run around this end of the CBD and open up opportunities for new busway infrastructure like layover bays. Extra bus tunnels could also be installed in the new tunnels to greatly increase the capacity of the bus network."

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/underground-bus-loop-planned-for-brisbane-cbd-20130919-2u0wf.html

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Offline HappyTrainGuy

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Re: Brisbane Underground Bus Oneway Tunnel ???
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2013, 02:41:36 PM »
TBH it makes some sense.  In that if they all fed in there then headed straight back out again while merging the Translink KGSB/QSBS/Surface super stops into one ultra mega super stop. They could also make sectors where each region bus is located. But what they should be doing first is undertaking a proper network review rather than the crap they pulled out of their ass the first time. Delete routes. Merge Routes. Force interchanges. Establish a CFN. Utilise higher capacity buses. Then and if then blow the 250 million on this thing.
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Offline Derwan

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Re: Brisbane Underground Bus Oneway Tunnel ???
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2013, 03:13:48 PM »
Here's an updated story.  It makes a bit more sense.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/brisbane-lord-mayor-graham-quirk-releases-plan-for-260m-cbd-underground-bus-loop/story-fnihsrf2-1226722709870



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STB

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Re: Brisbane Underground Bus Oneway Tunnel ???
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2013, 03:32:13 PM »
Oh I wish I knew what those colours meant so I could get a better idea on what they are putting forward.   By the way, if there are underground stations, and this is entirely underground with multiple stations...how does the Go Card work and a lack of available GPS data?

Offline joninbrisbane

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Re: Brisbane Underground Bus Oneway Tunnel ???
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2013, 03:48:01 PM »
Looks like red/orange = portals
Dark green = bridge

Offline HappyTrainGuy

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Re: Brisbane Underground Bus Oneway Tunnel ???
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2013, 05:18:49 PM »
By the way, if there are underground stations, and this is entirely underground with multiple stations...how does the Go Card work and a lack of available GPS data?

I'd imagine that they would add some receivers in the bus stations that would trip the onboard units. A similar system to what can be found in the airport link tunnel where your GPS still works despite being in a tunnel under Lutyche.
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Brisbane Underground Bus Oneway Tunnel ???
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2013, 06:27:52 PM »

ALTERNATIVE

----

BCC is bent on ensuring that Brisbane is locked into a bus-centric future. It is a financially and politically vested bus operation. I think that if we are going to have a tunnel, we should move/consider a Vancouver style Skytrain metro from Wooloongabba to the Valley. Extension is very easy as you'd just lay tracks on top of the busway surface. The busway already pushes the lower bound of metro systems in the AM peak.

This would also solve the city bus stops issue (as there would be few if any buses going to the CBD) and there would be no need for a second bus bridge or bus loop at all.

The case for buses as the mode of the future has NOT been justified independently on its own merits. There has been NO public consultation or scrutiny and no modal choice study has been done - buses have just been "assumed" to be the solution without question. It should be challenged.

Buses carry 1 staff: 100 pax. A good automatic train has 0 staff:500 pax at least. This would also clear the network problems on the busway plus allow more buses to work in the suburbs, increasing the frequency everywhere in suburban Brisbane.



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Re: Brisbane Underground Bus Oneway Tunnel ???
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2013, 06:31:51 PM »
The only problem with that is LD, that given Brisbane's spread out nature and low density, rail isn't really that flexible to deal with the layout of Brisbane.  At least with buses it can deal with the spread out nature of Brisbane reasonably well.

I suppose an alternative to BCC's plan is to extend the existing busway at the Wooloongabba intersection into the city and tunnel underneath, following the general path of the CRR / whatever you want to call it nowadays.  That way at least you can divert buses out of Mater Hill, Southbank and Culture Centre freeing up slots, but also having an extra set of tunnels if you wish to convert it to rail in the long term.

Offline #Metro

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Re: Brisbane Underground Bus Oneway Tunnel ???
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2013, 06:37:50 PM »
Quote
The only problem with that is LD, that given Brisbane's spread out nature and low density, rail isn't really that flexible to deal with the layout of Brisbane.  At least with buses it can deal with the spread out nature of Brisbane reasonably well.

I don't agree with this and here is why:

1. The low density figure is due to a different ABS definition of 'urbanised area' than that almost all other countries use and also due to large bushland areas (Rocklea flood plain, Griffith University, Mt Gravatt, Mt Coo-tha)

2. Both Toronto and Perth (if you want a local example) manage to operate successful feeder and transfer systems in wide and dispersed areas. Even Melbourne which is one of the largest dispersed footprint cities in the world manages to get buses go to train stations. I do not see any difference between a bus entering a train station and a bus entering a busway - in both cases passengers are entering a Class A ROW.

3. Installation of a feeder and transfer model would allow Vancouver style skytrains to operate the main section and buses to operate in the suburbs - this will boost bus frequency massively and expel huge volumes of air. It is also hugely more efficient than thousands of buses converge on the CBD each with a driver - skytrain system can be fully automatic.

This is too important and critical a time to make the wrong choice. This is NEW infrastructure and we have a golden opportunity to get the first metro system in Australia put in. The Lord Mayor is going to lock the entire city into decades and decades of bus-centric 'solutions'. Let's look at alternatives.
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Offline James

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Re: Brisbane Underground Bus Oneway Tunnel ???
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2013, 06:40:02 PM »
This would have to be the biggest waste of money I have ever seen. Lapdog has covered very well most of the reasons why I am against this - although I'm going to steer clear of the SkyTrain argument, and get back to basics.

The SOLE reason why this is happening is due to our bus-centric direct service network, where over 90% of bus routes proceed to the CBD, and those which don't are designed to be incredibly unattractive to passengers. If we move towards a connected network, where buses feed both busways and rail lines, we will find the CBD less congested in terms of bus movements, and greater numbers of passengers being moved by the network.

If the bus review was implemented (TransLink's one, not BCC's joke), we would find a significant amount of additional capacity in the busway system. In other words, no need for this system for another 10-20 years.

Long term, we should be looking at bi-artics/light rail for the busways. Not a further entrenchment of a bus-centric network. I'm more inclined to use the former as regular buses could still proceed along the inner section of the busway without too much impediment.

The only problem with that is LD, that given Brisbane's spread out nature and low density, rail isn't really that flexible to deal with the layout of Brisbane.  At least with buses it can deal with the spread out nature of Brisbane reasonably well.

I suppose an alternative to BCC's plan is to extend the existing busway at the Wooloongabba intersection into the city and tunnel underneath, following the general path of the CRR / whatever you want to call it nowadays.  That way at least you can divert buses out of Mater Hill, Southbank and Culture Centre freeing up slots, but also having an extra set of tunnels if you wish to convert it to rail in the long term.

No, it is because development has occurred away from the rail network and we have not made any significant upgrades to the rail network since the Cleveland Line re-opened (on an inferior alignment) in the 1980s. Brisbane is no worse than any other city.
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Brisbane Underground Bus Oneway Tunnel ???
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2013, 06:44:01 PM »
Ottawa, Canada is making the conversion ----> http://www.ottawalightrail.ca/

You need a larger vehicle to transfer into during peak hour. Having a bus transfer into another bus (even if it is a larger bus) is not ideal IMHO. Buses do best when they're running in the suburbs. Rail is excellent at line haul. Combine the two. It would be a real shame if it is just going to be a bus tunnel with a bazillion routes going through it, all with different stops and all requiring staff, different route numbers, different stopping patterns and duplication.
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Brisbane Underground Bus Oneway Tunnel ???
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2013, 06:45:48 PM »
Quote
Brisbane does and I think the CRR or whatever would be better at this time intergrated into Citytrain.

I am specifically referring to the BUS/TRAIN combined tunnel. What I am suggesting is that we consider a SKYTRAIN/TRAIN tunnel instead. Instead of a bus tunnel under the CBD going to the valley, put Skytrains in it.
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Offline Gazza

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Re: Brisbane Underground Bus Oneway Tunnel ???
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2013, 07:22:35 PM »
Quote
Both Toronto and Perth (if you want a local example) manage to operate successful feeder and transfer systems in wide and dispersed areas.
But Perth has the Esplanade Busport and Wellington St Bus station, which is being put underground right now as part of the CityLink project.

Point is, there still should be a decent solution for buses coming from the "in between" areas not likey to be reached by rail and outside of attractive feeder range....And of course capacity for those routes we do want more of (230, 175, 325)
My thoughts on this proposal...At least it's $200 mil rather than $2 Bil, which is a start.

Do I think we should do more to stop near empty buses entering the CBD before building this? Absolutley. But at the same time the stupid layout of QSBS and the "single track section" between KGS and QSBS aren't sustainable in the long term for the routes that do need to use it.

Offline #Metro

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Re: Brisbane Underground Bus Oneway Tunnel ???
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2013, 07:44:35 PM »
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Offline Jonno

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Re: Brisbane Underground Bus Oneway Tunnel ???
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2013, 11:54:46 PM »
This is just getting Wacky now.  BCC wants to spend hundreds of millions of dollars cattering for buses that are under-utilised.  This is all to hide the fact they refused to rationalise/tunk-route the current bus network.

Offline Set in train

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Re: Brisbane Underground Bus Oneway Tunnel ???
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2013, 12:26:35 AM »
Another normal day in wacky Brisbane, the capital others laugh at.

BCC continue to pursue growth of buses because it feeds the insatiable beast of required growth the council staff desire.

Council staff are dictating the agenda in the council, it is steeped in power plays more than any other level of govt we have representing us and the elected councillors are being taken along for the ride, akin to being made the bullets and being asked to fire them as the mouthpiece.

It would not matter if ALP or LNP had the majority in council, the staff are calling the shots, setting the agenda.

Offline ozbob

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Re: Brisbane Underground Bus Oneway Tunnel ???
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2013, 03:56:24 AM »
Brisbanetimes --> Council bus plan relies on state money

Quote
City Hall has unveiled its grand, $2.2 billion plan to ease Brisbane's congested public transport network – but it will not become reality without state government cash.

Lord Mayor Graham Quirk released the Suburbs 2 City plan on Thursday, with key traffic-easing congestion measures including a new underground bus loop connecting the existing Queen Street and King George Square, cross river infrastructure and a tunnel from the city to Fortitude Valley.

Cr Quirk said the billion dollar first stage of the plan could be achieved in the next five to 10 years but only if a funding agreement can be reached between the council and the Newman government ...

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/council-bus-plan-relies-on-state-money-20130919-2u2l2.html


http://images.brisbanetimes.com.au/2013/09/19/4760330/art-bus-620x349.jpg
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Offline ozbob

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Re: Brisbane Underground Bus Oneway Tunnel ???
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2013, 03:58:40 AM »
Couriermail --> Lord Mayor Graham Quirk announces unfunded $2.2b Brisbane bus tunnel with no projected date
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Offline ozbob

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Re: Brisbane Underground Bus Oneway Tunnel ???
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2013, 03:59:43 AM »
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Brisbane Underground Bus Oneway Tunnel ???
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2013, 04:09:25 AM »
It's the bus box.
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Re: Brisbane Underground Bus Oneway Tunnel ???
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2013, 04:49:17 AM »
Quote
The only problem with that is LD, that given Brisbane's spread out nature and low density, rail isn't really that flexible to deal with the layout of Brisbane.  At least with buses it can deal with the spread out nature of Brisbane reasonably well.

I don't agree with this and here is why:

1. The low density figure is due to a different ABS definition of 'urbanised area' than that almost all other countries use and also due to large bushland areas (Rocklea flood plain, Griffith University, Mt Gravatt, Mt Coo-tha)

2. Both Toronto and Perth (if you want a local example) manage to operate successful feeder and transfer systems in wide and dispersed areas. Even Melbourne which is one of the largest dispersed footprint cities in the world manages to get buses go to train stations. I do not see any difference between a bus entering a train station and a bus entering a busway - in both cases passengers are entering a Class A ROW.

3. Installation of a feeder and transfer model would allow Vancouver style skytrains to operate the main section and buses to operate in the suburbs - this will boost bus frequency massively and expel huge volumes of air. It is also hugely more efficient than thousands of buses converge on the CBD each with a driver - skytrain system can be fully automatic.

This is too important and critical a time to make the wrong choice. This is NEW infrastructure and we have a golden opportunity to get the first metro system in Australia put in. The Lord Mayor is going to lock the entire city into decades and decades of bus-centric 'solutions'. Let's look at alternatives.

LD, I'm not dissing the idea completely, it's just so far bus is a flexible form of transport, even if it has less capacity.  And in the current state that Brisbane is in, with sparse areas and steep hills in places (especially in the inner west), bus for the time being I think is a reasonable outcome.  That's not to say that in future it will be a reasonable outcome, depending on how Brisbane develops in the coming decades.

I'd personally prefer if BCC holds back for once and lets the State deal with the issue first, and see what they come up with with the 'Brisbane Underground', which as I understand it is dual tunnels, one for rail and one for bus, if so, then I'd like to see where those bus tunnels start from, and if there is any chance of using the existing SE Busway further away from the Southbank area to avoid that congestion, and even divert it well away from that congestion, hence why I thought about why not extending the busway at Wooloongabba and taking it underground following the CRR / Brisbane Underground route, where you can turn that into rail in the future allowing extra capacity if a need arises. 

I do doubt that this project will get any funding and is simply a thought bubble.

Offline #Metro

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Re: Brisbane Underground Bus Oneway Tunnel ???
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2013, 08:03:55 AM »
Quote
LD, I'm not dissing the idea completely, it's just so far bus is a flexible form of transport, even if it has less capacity.  And in the current state that Brisbane is in, with sparse areas and steep hills in places (especially in the inner west), bus for the time being I think is a reasonable outcome.  That's not to say that in future it will be a reasonable outcome, depending on how Brisbane develops in the coming decades.

I don't see any contradiction. The buses can continue doing their work in the suburbs and the skytrain can do line haul work along the busway alignment. There is no reason why a bus can't continue to drive along steep hills and then terminate at a train station, particularly in the inner west. For example, you could get 411 to terminate at Toowong train station.

The key thing here is that if we can get buses off the busway, we can amplify bus frequency in the suburbs massively. If we are going to spend billions of dollars on an upgrade, we should get it right.
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